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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 8:12 pm
by Catz Bartlett
Eep! I forgot about the Noghri...

But then again, what with the cybernetics and heavy scarring, wouldn't Vader's scent have changed drastically? Maybe they determined her some other way...some way that could've let them mix her up.

And anyhow, even if she WASN'T physically Vader's offspring...he pretty much adopted the Skywalker clan as his family, dontcha think? ^_^

I think that Leia's status as the Mal'ary'ush is pretty safe...

BTW, the Noghri *aren't* furry - just gray-skinned, with very big teeth and nostrils, and no hair.

As to Vader's redemption...I don't quite know *what* to think, anymore, if he's really Anakin.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2002 12:48 am
by Komodo
On 2002-03-15 03:52, T Campbell wrote:
Hardly surprising. John Williams scored both movies.

I know. I just thought it worth mentioning for any John Willams completists out there.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:55 pm
by Jarnor23
As Brin says, with the current interpretation of Star Wars, the Vader redemption scene is akin to Hitler being posthumously vindicated because he saved the life of his own son.
I don't really have a problem with the redemption bit in Ep6; it is up to the individual viewer to decide whether or not Vader truly redeemed himself.
But in Ep1, we are asked to consider Anakin Skywalker as the main hero. This is fine if you consider the movie on its own, but with knowledge of what happened in 4, 5 and 6 things become uncomfortabe.
Of course if the switch occurs, there's no longer a problem, and it would also explain why Obi Wan is given so little screen time in Ep1.
I don't know, the theory has a very "clutching at straws" feel to it. It is possible, but I think quite unlikely given some of the things Lucas has said about his works.

First of all, about feeling uncomfortable rooting for Anakin, a good author would use your knowledge of future events to make you feel just that. In one interview, Lucas stated that he wanted to paint a picture of Anakin of being so brave and innocent so you have to ask yourself how this kind of boy ends up becoming what he does. While it doesn't clinch things either way, it certainly can't be used for a reason for things to necessarily be the way this guy thinks they should be.

Secondly, Lucas has stated many times that his movies take many concepts from our real world religions, both eastern and western. The reason I bring this up is because without thinking in a religious context, Vader's redemption makes no sense to a secular worldview. Many religions have very close analogies to what I'm about to mention, but I'm going to use Christianity for my argument due to it being my faith, and therefore the one I have the most knowledge about. Also, Lucas clearly was thinking of Christian teachings when the "chosen one" who will change the worlds was born of a virgin mother, so it is clear that Mr. Lucas is not excluding Christianity from the concepts that he is using to base the faith of his universe.

Basically, intent matters more than deeds. If you try to save the world and die in the process, your intent to do a good deed is what matters. Being sorry for having screwed up is important, and trying for forgiveness is more important than actually to survive long enough to undo all the wrong you have done. Conversely, if you don't care about anyone else, even if you do "good deeds" without caring for others, it does you no good. According to Christianity, Hitler's sins were forgiven just like anyone else's were, if he chose to repent of the evil he had done. I'm not saying if he did or not, but Christianity actually teaches people not to think they are any better than anyone else, for all have sinned and fallen short of what they are supposed to be.

With this in mind, Anakin could indeed have turned away from his evil ways and achieved forgiveness, even though he never had a chance to do more than one good deed to prove it. Had Vader lived, it should be clear that his destiny would have changed drastically, although it is uncertain about the particulars of what would have happened, it is clear that he would not have lived his life in the exact same fashion. Most other faiths have very similar concepts to them, although there are some differences. Now, The Force, being based on religious thought from this planet, should be assumed to work in similar ways until shown otherwise. If you look at life as an equation that has "good stuff you did" on one side and "bad stuff you did" on the other, it would seem like Vader got off easy. On the other hand, spiritual thought has an entirely different way of looking at this concept that is not as based in the ways of crude matter, but rather as the luminous beings we are.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jarnor23 on 2002-03-18 12:57 ]</font>

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 3:55 pm
by RebLaw
hmmmm that's almost an interesting idea, the whole switcheroo, except... the guy IS obviously grasping at straws... but still, anything's possible isn't it? oh well, i'm probably going to go see AotC on the first day :grin: like i saw tPM on the first day... oh well...


PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:17 pm
by J.
The "Ol' Switcheroo" theory is well-argued, and in particular the connection between young Anakin and Owen Lars is impossible to ignore. All the same, it just doesn't hang together for me. First of all, the theory attributes to Lucas the knowledge from the very beginning that Anakin and Obi-Wan were impersonating one another. I've read the early drafts for Ep.IV's script, and I can tell you we shouldn't give Lucas that much credit as a writer. I love the grand ideas behind Star Wars, but frankly, I can only stand to listen to the dialogue of Empire and Jedi, and those weren't all his work. Lucas is not a good writer.

Second and more importantly, Vader's redemption, with his son's assistance, is the focal point of the entire story arc. Anakin is the chosen one, and he must ultimately be the one to restore order to the force, by his killing of the Emperor. People seem to minimize the importance of this act. But if not for Anakin's triumph, the rebellion would have failed and the dark side would reign victorious. I'd say it was pretty important. One could argue, I suppose, that if Kenobi were really Anakin, he restored "balance" to the force by guiding Luke, but that's not much of an act - Yoda did all the actual teaching beyond the first step, after all. Ben's spiritual guidance seems pretty minimal in comparison to Anakin sacrificing everything to stop Palpatine.

Sorry if this sounds overwrought... but Vader's turning away from the Dark Side is one of my favorite moments in film, and I just can't swallow the idea of its force being minimized by an unsatisfying plot twist designed to distract from increasingly poor writing.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: J. on 2002-03-18 17:18 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: J. on 2002-03-18 19:23 ]</font>

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:22 pm
by Vitriol
I agree, the whole theory does seem somewhat unlikely. But it does have enough points to make you ponder it, at least for a while.

As far as the redemption of Vader goes, that was probably my favorite bit of RotJ (well, except for the whole Sarlacc fight), and I do indeed believe that a person can be redeemed or redeem themselves in this way if they sincerely repent.

However, this does not alter the fact that he caused so much pain and suffering previous to this; a death-toll in the billions, the near-extinction of the most influential religious order of the time and so on.

While I accept that the alteration from an innocent child to one warped by the Dark Side could be a powerful moment in a movie, The Phantom Menace did not seem to even try to embrace such a powerful theme.

Instead we got a six-year old innocent wunderkins who single-handedly saves a planet basically by accident.

I may be judging things preemptively and unfairly; I presume (and hope and pray) that the next two movies will be darker and more mature in tone, and will actually attempt to confront the themes neccesary to mesh the two trilogies together.

But we are still being asked to cheer for a child who we know will grow up to spend most of his life rooting out good and light where he can find it; commiting mass murder in the name of power and in the service of a Dark Power. While at the start and end of his life he may be a god person, for the most part he is the darkest evil.

edit: Er, i agree J, i can't see that an Anakin/Ben did a huge amount of balancing. The only explanation I can offer is that Qui-Gon got it wrong by a generation or so; it's Anakin's son Luke who restores balance to the Force.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vitriol on 2002-03-18 18:24 ]</font>

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:22 pm
by Doublespeak
Not to take it off topic, but I have always wanted to see an origin/biography on the Emperor, his history, motivations etc.

Has their been one in the books or comics?

I Hope Ep.2 and 3 have that.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:38 pm
by KingLeon
Evil is always an attractive prospect to study... Who knows?

An idea... we all speak from the view of those who have seen the original three... if some yet-to-be-born child is shown Episode 1 all the way through to Episode-6... I wonder what the total affect would be... NOT knowing who the heck Vader is in Episode 1... Hmm...

PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 9:27 pm
by RebLaw
nah, it's not the way it is... that'd completely destroy episodes 4-6, I mean it'd makethe "good" guys decietful and the "bad" guys just insane... annakin skywalker becomes Darth Vader, end of story... Darth Vader isn't by his own nature bad, this's a concept some people find hard to grasp: good people can be on the wrong side, the can do bad things, but it doesnt make them bad. I'mnot saying that lord vader was a saint, I'm just saying that at his basic level he wasn't devil incarnet, no one really is, and it's good that he attoned himself. why are people always caught up in this good vs evil crap?


PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2002 10:47 pm
by Jarnor23
Probably because Star Wars at it's heart is a "good guys win over the evil guys, despite being weaker" story, much like LOTR. :smile:


PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2002 7:29 pm
by LordNicodareus
OK ok, I heard this once, long ago, and I have always liked it, so here goes. Anakin and Darth SidiousThe New Emporer are fighting, at the end of II, or beginning of III, I dunno. Palpatine knocks Anakin into the pit of lava, as stated before. Palpatine lifts Anakin out, and says, that 1, you can join the darkside(which Anakin has a liking too, or maybe he uses the force too much, or is just an angry guy), or 2, I can throw you back into this pit of lava, and you die. Now anakin may be thinking, ok I tell this guy That i'll join hiim, and later i can kill him, thus saving the republic and fulfilling my mission. Well we all know how the story goes from here, with the systematic destruction of all the jedi in the galaxy save two. THis has always been my fav explanation for how Anakin got turned to the darkside. Anyone esle hear the same? or diff for that matter?

Now the world has gone to bed,
Darkness has engulfed my head,
I can see by infared,
How I hate the night.
-Marvin the Android, "So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LordNicodareus on 2002-03-26 19:30 ]</font>

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2002 7:49 pm
by Maccabee
Welcome to the boards, Lord N.

I like your explanation, so it probably won't be what Lucas actually uses.


PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2002 8:00 pm
by LordNicodareus
Thanx Maccabee. Ill try to be halfway intelligent and not insult all of you...although I wont try too hard....(insert maniacal laughter here)

ph33r m`/ l337 j3d1 5k1||z!!

Now the world has gone to bed,
Darkness has engulfed my head,
I can see by infared,
How I hate the night.
-Marvin the Android, "So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: lordNicodareus on 2002-03-26 20:02 ]</font>

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2002 8:30 pm
by NaKaithus
On 2002-03-26 19:29, LordNicodareus wrote:
OK ok, I heard this once, long ago, and I have always liked it, so here goes.

(with much snippage of SW-related combat)

I'd always thought that was a description of a climactic battle between /Kenobi/ and Skywalker, likely at the end of Episode III, after Anakin had turned to the Dark Side(tm) and obviously before he truly became Darth Vader.

But that may be just me...


PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:53 am
by Catz Bartlett
Way I heard it, what happened was a climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin inside a volcano-thingy, which ended in Anakin falling into a pit of lava; Obi-Wan tried to save him, but thought that he was dead, and left. Anakin survived, but was so badly burned that afterwards he needed cybernetic implants just to survive...hence the mask, robotics, etc.

Obviously, he was more than a bit bitter towards Obi-Wan (and thus all Jedi) for 'leaving him to die'...

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 11:18 am
by LordNicodareus
Well, that sounds like a good way too, hell I'm just waiting to see Lucas can pull this off without dumbing it down.
Palpatine: Join me, Anakin, and together,we can RULE the Galaxy!!
Anakin: Uhh, OK, Padme left me, that droind I built has gotten all neurotic, and I am filled with teen angst...
you get the idea. If George pulls something like this off, I'll be at at the head of the lynch mob!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 1:59 pm
by NaKaithus
On 2002-03-27 09:53, Catz Bartlett wrote:
Way I heard it, what happened was a climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin inside a volcano-thingy

And of course, had I read your post from earlier in the thread instead of assuming that I'd read it all and gone straight to the end, then I would have realized that.

Oops... :oops:


PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2002 8:36 pm
by Keith
I like that theory, but sadly it isn't supported by the info on Episode 2. Also, Lucas would probably be lynched anyway if it turned out he'd hoodwinked the entire world for 20-25 years. :smile:

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2002 9:02 pm
by LordNicodareus
Actually Keith, I think I might lynch him anyways, if Ep.II turns out to be a love story with the Star Wars name on it. I was almost going to when he pulled that midichlorians BS too...h3h h3h

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2002 9:08 pm
by Keith
That's what I meant. He's darned to heck no matter what. :grin: