Somebody had to do it...

My name is Kenny · Post by **My name is Kenny** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 7:42 am

Learn how to deal with people, shape them, mold them to be acceptable people.

Riiiight.

I vote get him the hell out of the club now.

[ This Message was edited by: My name is Kenny on 2002-04-01 09:23 ]

Nullset · Post by **Nullset** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 8:17 am

Nay.

Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

Also, about the abuse of process. Will was out of line suggesting that this vote be called now, when Rikk is seeing red. Democratic processes only work propperly when people can be objective.

Aris Katsaris · Post by **Aris Katsaris** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 8:29 am

On 2002-04-01 06:51, Diamond wrote:
My vote? He stays. The reasons:

He risked his life to try to rescue Shanna's mom from the General.

You think he cared about Shanna's mom? I thought he only did it because he saw someone he thought he could legitimately hurt.

A "Ooh, she's a baddie! I can kill her and not get arrested, and I will even be a hero." kind-of-thing.

Brave, yes, but hardly altruistic. I mean if he doesn't care for Alisin's life, why should he care for the life of Shanna's mom?

His appreciation of Science Fiction is genuine, albeit shallow. Good science fiction should appeal to both the masses and the intellectuals.

But this is not about whether he's an "intellectual" or not. It's about whether he's a bastard or not. Nobody said that they ought to expell him because he was an idiot. Everyone is doing it because of his *character*, not his intellect.

Doublespeak · Post by **Doublespeak** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 8:44 am

Well what did he do wrong?

1.He molested Jackie. Not to mention the fact that he used his ties with the club in order to maneuver her into a position where he could take advantage of her sexually

2.He maliciously struck, and harassed Guth (something he will no doubt continue to do).

3.He is a dick/social retard.

I would be ok with the 3rd, and 2nd if it was because he lost control as a result of anger, and perhaps felt remorse. But all 3 and he is gone

I vote he gets kicked out. I don't see any other answer.

The Fans! aren

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 8:58 am

On 2002-04-01 06:06, Hysteria wrote:
The only question I have is if Stu is nasty enough to get the other BOs to seek some revenge of some sort on the Skiffies.

I, too, thought Stu was a member of the BO frat, but it turns out if you reread the whole sequence that he was at their booth as an interested freshmen, and at their party as a potential pledge. We don't know whether or not he ever actually joined (or was accepted if he tried, for that matter).

(The newbie sequence starts here, for those interested in following this up.)

My vote is he stays. Anyone who's read my posts about Stu should know why, but in brief I agree with Meighn and Tim Mitts (would Tim The Fanboy still have voted the same if he had voted after his hero?).

I am surprised by three cast member votes. That Cath was so quick to condemn him, after seeing him (as they both understood it at the time) try to save Shanna's mom, surprises me. But then, that's the deal she made, isn't it? She is a creature of politics. Still . . .

I'm surprised that Meighan said "Nay." I agree with her, but I'm not sure I understand her motivation and/or reasoning. She shouldn't care that much one way or the other about him, and even by the time it got to her it was pretty clear how the vote was going. And she's pretty political, too.

And Harry. He, of all people, should know that people raised to be ignorant can grow and change over time (although they seldom do), and that one can be a jerk and still be a valuable team asset.

Rikk has given in to the Dark Side, IMO -- he is making a rash decision based on current anger. Never a wise thing to do.

Steve Bolhafner

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 9:08 am

On 2002-04-01 08:29, Aris Katsaris wrote:

You think he cared about Shanna's mom? I thought he only did it because he saw someone he thought he could legitimately hurt.

A "Ooh, she's a baddie! I can kill her and not get arrested, and I will even be a hero." kind-of-thing.

Brave, yes, but hardly altruistic. I mean if he doesn't care for Alisin's life, why should he care for the life of Shanna's mom?

This is exactly what I mean about being a jerk and a hero at the same time. If the General had meant to kill Shanna's mom, and Stu had succeeded in stopping it, would anybody care whether or not his motives were pure?

Steve Bolhafner

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 9:25 am

On 2002-04-01 08:44, Doublespeak wrote:
Well what did he do wrong?

1.He molested Jackie. Not to mention the fact that he used his ties with the club in order to maneuver her into a position where he could take advantage of her sexually

Molested? Not that I saw. Perhaps he would have, if Will hadn't showed up. Certainly, he was trying to take advantage of her, and he not only used his ties in the club to do so, but rereading the newbie intro it's clear that he first joined the club with the express purpose of getting closer to Jackie.

2.He maliciously struck, and harassed Guth (something he will no doubt continue to do).

Their dialogue implies malicious harassment on his part going back to their childhood, but the fact is that Guth initiated this particular exchange, so if their was any "malicious harassment" going on, it was coming from him. The "striking" part was a) in retaliation for Guth's harassment and b) making a point that Guth wasn't as smart as he thought he was.

3.He is a dick/social retard.

How is this something specific that he did? It isn't, it's your opinion of his personality. I could say the same about Tim, although I'll admit it's even more true of Stu.

I think it's wonderful that T has done such a good job of coming up with a character that pushes all of our buttons, and I freely admit that it's easy for me to say, as an objective observer, that Stu should stay, but if I was one of the characters in the strip, voting in the heat of the moment, I might well vote to ban him also.

Steve Bolhafner

My name is Kenny · Post by **My name is Kenny** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 9:27 am

On 2002-04-01 09:08, SteveB wrote:
On 2002-04-01 08:29, Aris Katsaris wrote:

You think he cared about Shanna's mom? I thought he only did it because he saw someone he thought he could legitimately hurt.

A "Ooh, she's a baddie! I can kill her and not get arrested, and I will even be a hero." kind-of-thing.

Brave, yes, but hardly altruistic. I mean if he doesn't care for Alisin's life, why should he care for the life of Shanna's mom?
This is exactly what I mean about being a jerk and a hero at the same time. If the General had meant to kill Shanna's mom, and Stu had succeeded in stopping it, would anybody care whether or not his motives were pure?

Steve Bolhafner

So he might have saved her. He also might have killed her. Would you care if his motives were pure then? Yes, he might become a hero, but he IS mean, offensive, misogynist, careless and stupid. He IS a worthless piece of white trash. And he IS pissing off the other club members royal.

[ This Message was edited by: My name is Kenny on 2002-04-01 09:38 ]

Matrygg · Post by **Matrygg** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 9:40 am

I am surprised by three cast member votes. That Cath was so quick to condemn him, after seeing him (as they both understood it at the time) try to save Shanna's mom, surprises me. But then, that's the deal she made, isn't it? She is a creature of politics. Still . . .
I think you're being unfair to Kath here. Yeah, she's Machiavellian (and it's always especially easy with idealists...trust me) but she did not contract with Jackie to take Stu down...she said she'd test him. Admittedly, his idiotic attitude towards Alisin wasn't the test Kath set up, but it was a test, of sorts...and he failed it.
And Harry. He, of all people, should know that people raised to be ignorant can grow and change over time (although they seldom do), and that one can be a jerk and still be a valuable team asset.

Harry is also old enough to have tossed away all but a hard core of idealism. I think he knows better than the rest of the club that you have to pick the hill you're willing to die on. While change on Stu's part may be true, it's also true that Stu probably won't change. Moreover, assuming Harry realizes that Skiffy is more than just a club (and assuming that he is ex-mil, like we seem to have decided) having someone like Stu onboard is bad for unit morale, and could actually end up downright dangerous. His choice actually makes a lot of sense to me.

--Matt

J. · Post by J. » Mon Apr 01, 2002 10:01 am

Pure and simple: Stu is NOT a Fan. He has no place in the club. The rules were created to benefit people who are frankly, "freaks, geeks, and misfits". We know who we are. Stu is the kid who made fun of Fans in high school, who bullied them on the playground. And the club has full right to choose who they want as part of their group. They're under no obligation whatsoever to try and rehabilitate someone who holds them all in real contempt, has no regard for anyone but himself, and is generally infectious human waste.

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 10:29 am

On 2002-04-01 10:01, J. wrote:
Pure and simple: Stu is NOT a Fan.

Neither is Alisin. And Shanna keeps denying that she is. Mehgan is here because it will look good on her resume, and is a marginal fan at best. Jackie's not much of a fan, either, for that matter. She's there because of Will almost as much as Stu's there because of her.

He has no place in the club. The rules were created to benefit people who are frankly, "freaks, geeks, and misfits".

One of the distinguishing characteristics of whom are often a distinct lack of social skills, like Tim Mitts. Stu's is more severe, but they have much in common (the main reason, I'd imagine, that Tim voted "Nay"). Just because he's not your kind of freak, geek or misfit doesn't keep him from being one.

We know who we are. Stu is the kid who made fun of Fans in high school, who bullied them on the playground.

He apparently did this to Guth. There is no evidence whatsoever that he did it to anyone else.

And the club has full right to choose who they want as part of their group.

Oh, sure. They have the right to kick him out. I won't question that.

They're under no obligation whatsoever to try and rehabilitate someone who holds them all in real contempt, has no regard for anyone but himself, and is generally infectious human waste.

I'm not sure that Stu has shown that he "holds them all in real contempt." He clearly says things to Guth that indicate he holds him in contempt, but they have a history. If he dislikes everyone so much, why does he stick around?

I think all you Stu-haters have been taken in by his facade. His arrogance and hostility mask a deep sense of loneliness. He is a freak, and he doesn't have any friends -- the more I think about it, the more I'm sure that the BO guys wouldn't accept him. He probably has no place else to go.

Folks, T did not bring this guy in to act obnoxiously, get kicked out of the club and disappear. There's a lot more going on here, I guarantee you.

Steve Bolhafner

Nullset · Post by **Nullset** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 11:26 am

Hear, hear!

Nicely stated, SteveB.

Freak, geeks, and wierdos need to hang together, whether they like each other or not. I went to a new GamesWorkshop store this weekend. The staff were way over the top people, talking loudly and boisterously about the fun of tabletop gaming. One was giving a Warhammer40K demo, and shouted to the customer to use his enchanted stormbolter of dead-shootiness to rain down hot death on his foes. These guys scared me in a way. But then I thought about it. This is what _my_ friends do on a Friday night. These really were _my_ kind of people, whether they acted the way I would or not. Strange, but interesting. I stayed as long as I could, and laughed it up with them.

Rikk is angry, and is trying to defend his wife's (and his own) honor. He can _almost_ be excused. The Skifies, though, are letting their leader down. They should be able to put their feelings aside, and doing what is just. That's why they, in that moment, have ceased to be the defenders of truth, justice, and the terrain way.

On a side note, it's kinda sad that this earthshattering event is occuring while things spin out of control over at CRFH. Dave could really use some sane advice right now, and the Rikk would typically be a good place to get it. He'll likely be too busy for the next several months, though.

LordNicodareus · Post by **LordNicodareus** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 11:55 am

ok Ladies and Gents, the Unoffcial tally goes as follows
He stays - 8
He goes - 11

Now, this is an UNOFFCIAL count, and I urge someone else to count also (if you would be so kind) Well well, After all of the arguments and IMO's..I change my vote, again, to say that he should go. Of course, after reading a few more arguments, I might change my vote back...damn, it sucks being so fickle...so Updated Vote(unless someone posts before I finish this long ass post)is now as folows -
He goes - 12
He Stays - 7
Again, someone else count, I wouldn't wanna be called a liar now, would I??

_________________
A man said to the Universe: "I Exist!", To which the Universe replied: "But that does not create in Me a sense of Obligation."
Stephen Crane

[ This Message was edited by: LordNicodareus on 2002-04-01 11:57 ]

Nireena · Post by **Nireena** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:17 pm

I can see it from two different perspectives...

1) The comic

He should stay. He adds discord and interest. As someone earlier said, he manages to push everyone's buttons- characters and readers alike. He makes us face our own reactions to prejudice, ignorance, misogyny, and shallowness. He prompted the debate about just how accepting and tolerant we should be considering how much of society rejects us as fans.

2) As a club

When I was president of my college's fan club, there were a couple people who made the other members uncomfortable but I stood up for them and let them stay. They were a bit eccentric but harmless.

Stu is not harmless. Whether or not he intends the harm (physical, emotional and otherwise) or not is irrelevant. It is not the club's duty to resocialize people or to accept everyone. They have every right to throw him out. In particular, as others have pointed out this is no ordinary scifi/f club: they have to be able to trust each other enough to work together, even if they don't necessarily all like each other.

And as for Rikk acting rashly in having this vote: acting rashly would have been striking Stu from behind. Acting rationally is going through the protocols to remove a troublesome member ("we have all the officers here, we have quorum..") even if he is speeding up the process a bit.

So, you can either count this as one vote for each side or no vote since they cancel each other out

Nireena

My name is Kenny · Post by **My name is Kenny** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:47 pm

I'm not sure that Stu has shown that he "holds them all in real contempt." He clearly says things to Guth that indicate he holds him in contempt, but they have a history. If he dislikes everyone so much, why does he stick around?

I think all you Stu-haters have been taken in by his facade. His arrogance and hostility mask a deep sense of loneliness. He is a freak, and he doesn't have any friends -- the more I think about it, the more I'm sure that the BO guys wouldn't accept him. He probably has no place else to go.

I think you're imagining things, but that's just my opinion. There's no real evidence that he doesn't (or didn't) have any friends, or that he's lonely at all. In my opinion, he's not a freak. He's just an asshole. And if he doesn't have any friends, that's his fault (which is mostly true for anyone without friends).

Folks, T did not bring this guy in to act obnoxiously, get kicked out of the club and disappear. There's a lot more going on here, I guarantee you.

Well, obviously. There has to be some sort of hidden dimension to him somewhere. But ignoring that he's there for a reason, and given what we know about him so far, if I were a member of the club, I would want him gone.

Muttley · Post by **Muttley** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 1:05 pm

Just in case my vote is unclear, I vote he stays. On sufferance, and with a warning and a clear explanation of why his conduct is unacceptable. If he continues to offend after that, then he has to go. But really, as yet we have only seen one side of him. Of course, that may be the only side - - -

Muttley
We live in a world where more people watched Oprah yesterday than their local news. Do you really want to be normal in this world???

Maritza_Campos · Post by **Maritza_Campos** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 1:07 pm

On a side note, it's kinda sad that this earthshattering event is occuring while things spin out of control over at CRFH. Dave could really use some sane advice right now, and the Rikk would typically be a good place to get it. He'll likely be too busy for the next several months, though.

Actually in CRFH is Christmas time, and in Faans all this is happening right after summer break. They are not simultaneous.

BUT still, Dave has spent way too much on long-distance phone calls

And Rikk, while a really nice guy and a smart one too, is clueless and crushes Rumy's heart from time to time. So they share exactly the same problem...

Maritza
CRFH.net

Loxley · Post by **Loxley** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 1:48 pm

I vote he stays.

Jerkdom isn't sufficient to boot him.
Being a slash-hound isn't sufficient to boot somebody (but wouldn't Will *love* to get rid of him for chasing "his" girl? Ignoble of you, Will).
Being rude and crude isn't enough reason, either.

Guth had it coming to him, and started it.

I bet that where he's from, he's never had good people around to set an example. I am from Stu's cultural group (the afore-mentioned white trash redneck). Think about how female Stu's treat their husbands... see why he's so shocked?

So, like I said, I vote he stays. He'll grow up or drop out of school altogether soon enough.

Loxley

Vitriol · Post by **Vitriol** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 1:57 pm

I'm going to have to go with stays.

I think he needs this, that no-one can stick around and watch Alisin, Kath, Rumy and all the rest of the girls in action without seriously reconsidering their opinions.

He could take a few tips from Rikk, too.

Anyway, I still think he's actinng out just like one of the heros from some sword-and-sorcery book; attaking the 'bad guy' and treating women like second-class citizens. He needs to be introduced to some decent literature (not Heinlein though, or Gawd knows how he'll end up:-))

Tat's another Nay, then.

Amorph · Post by **Amorph** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 2:10 pm

I'll also vote Nay. He stays.

As I said elsethread, you really find out what your principles are when you have to apply them to someone you hate. And it's just too easy to hate Stu. Tim (and SteveB on the forums) called this right.

This vote is driven by emotion. Look at the expression on Rikk's face.