Inner-Prized

FlyingFish · Post by **FlyingFish** » Sun Jan 27, 2002 12:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Catz Bartlett:
The reason why there were no kid-Borg in First Contact is because, according to either the Generations or First Contact novelization - I forget which - there ARE no kids on the Enterprise-E. It's more of a functional ship than a spacefaring city, like the Enterprise-D (the Galaxy-class) was...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I always thought having kids aboard was a dumb idea anyway. You're cruising around the fringes of known space, you're the flagship so any enemy craft is going to consider you a prime target, Starfleet seems to have this tendency to assign you especially risky missions (or you stumble across them by accident)... and yet you've got kids on board! Why put them at risk like that?

Strangeone · Post by **Strangeone** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 1:47 am

First Contact and Insurrection aren't all that comparable. Insurrection had more moral dilemma and First Contact was an action film in the same vein that Star Trek IV was whimsical adventure. While they're all Star Trek films, each one tries to have a different theme or style that separates it from all of the others. Sometimes they turn out great, other times, not so much.The point is, Insurrection can't be considered better than First Contact simply because it played on the issue of morality to a greater extent. It should be compared to other films of similar themes.

T'Renn · Post by **T'Renn** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:25 am

As for furryism in Star Trek, it happened. The Kzin (a felinoid biped species) were the bad guys in a lot of the 1970s animated episodes, and there was the triple-breasted catwoman who beat the crap out of Captain Jimmie in Star Trek V...Maccabee, who used to take this all so very seriously

You're forgetting M'Ress, a feline alien who was in Kirk's crew in the Animated Series. Of course, since (at Gene's insistance) Paramount considers the animated episodes to have "never happened", none of that counts. *sigh* I kind of miss it. Though none of the episodes was that good, none was as bad as "Spock's Brain"

And the Kzin were Larry Niven's Kzin, that episode was based on one of his short stories. It might have been adapted by him as well, but I doubt it. But he did approve of its use at least.

T'Renn "Though Trek V was worse than Spock's Brain....

" Vraomrell

[ This Message was edited by: T'Renn on 2002-02-20 00:28 ]

Roscoe · Post by **Roscoe** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:10 am

I don't believe I'll ever understand all this putting-down of ST V...

Agent13 · Post by **Agent13** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:14 pm

On 2002-01-23 06:27:00, vincegamer wrote:
I haven't seen the new series, but I can tell you for a fact that Gene Roddenberry wrote lyrics for the original Star Trek series. And I can also tell you they are really really bad.

And to bring this discussion around to the subject of what type of guy Gene Roddenberry was, I give you <a href="http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/trek1.htm">this</a>.

Agent13 · Post by **Agent13** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:19 pm

On 2002-02-20 00:25, T'Renn wrote:
As for furryism in Star Trek, it happened. The Kzin (a felinoid biped species) were the bad guys in a lot of the 1970s animated episodes, and there was the triple-breasted catwoman who beat the crap out of Captain Jimmie in Star Trek V...Maccabee, who used to take this all so very seriously

And the Kzin were Larry Niven's Kzin, that episode was based on one of his short stories. It might have been adapted by him as well, but I doubt it. But he did approve of its use at least.

http://www.larryniven.org/kzin/The_Soft_Weapon.htm
http://66.113.217.85/AnimatedSeries/SW.html
http://www.chesco.com/~mknzycalhn/kzin.html

Nullset · Post by **Nullset** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:55 am

Well, I've finally seen a few epsidoes of Enterprise, and I must recant some of my previous views. UPN plaed two eps back to back, along with TNN playing ST:TNG the ofspring and Wrath of Khan, so I got a good compare/contrast past/future motif going last night.

The opening song sounded corny when I'd heard about it, but with the visuals they chose it really worked. I do wish they'd used less "last forty years of NASA", though, in favor of more transition between Cocrane's warp experiment to the NX-01. The spacestation being assembled was right out of a Discovery Channel show, but worked oh so well.

Scott Bakula is Captain Archer. He plays the idealism simlar to Sam Becket, but there was no confusion in my mind. The doctor is very cool. The rest of the crew, meh, but that's okay. It plays very similar to SeaQuest, and lots of their crew were 'meh' as well!

The Vulcan is just ever so wrong, though. How many Vulcan women have we met in all of Trek? Couldn't they have found someone who you look at and say "Yep, that's a Vulcan all right." instead of "Yeah, she's _playing_ the Vulcan."? Most annoying. Hope she gets killed off or transfered. Was easy to see, too, since there was Savik to compare her to right on the other channel. And Savik wasn't even supposed to be _all_ Vulcan. Oh well.

I like how they make the ship seem small. Even in space with no frame of reference, they fill the screen with it, but it's easy to see its nowhere as big as the ST:TOS Enterprise. What's with the "NX class" bit though? Couldn't they differentiate the registry number from the type of ship? Even is this is Star Fleet's first really big thing, they've built other ships before, you'd think.

As for the feel of the show, the second ep last night gave a very Roddenberry-esque "Western in Space" showing. The bandits; the frieght haulers who like taking their time through wide open space; the Law and Order finally catching up to the unchartered areas; the foreshadowing of an era's end with lots of new, better, faster ships getting ready to sweep into these formerly unsettled places; and the marshal who shows equal respect for the rights of all, not just those he can easily sympathise with. Simply marvelous.

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:28 am

Wow. Everybody who doesn't know how the lyrics to the Star Trek theme came about (and I certainly didn't) should go read the link about the theme music. As a professional researcher, I have come to have a great respect for Barbara and David Mikkelson and the work they do on the Urban Legends page. I think this is almost certainly an accurate account, and it certainly makes Roddenberry look very bad.

Steve Bolhafner

T Campbell · Post by **T Campbell** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:08 pm

Gene was definitely tight-fisted. To be fair, STAR TREK was enormously expensive in its original run, and Gene, as a writer first and producer second, was all too used to a hand-to-mouth existence.

Nullset · Post by **Nullset** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:53 pm

Question. T points out how expensive ST:TOS was. Does anyone know how the price of production has changed over the years? I seem to recall that when ST:TNG was on they were buggeting about $1M per ep. Did this improved with stock sets costumes across the next three series? And how has Enterprise come out? They seem to use equiptment that's pretty easily had nowdays, but their set detail is much higher than TNG ever was.

BTW, where's the link on the theme's history? I didn't see it in this thread.

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:12 pm

With all due respect, T, tight-fisted is one thing. Writing lousy words long after the fact that you know will never be used so you can rip off half the royalties of somebody else's song based on a contract he was dumb enough to sign is something else again.

If the words had been written up front, but never used, but Gene felt entitled to the money, that would be one thing. But that's apparently not what happened.

Steve Bolhafner

Doublespeak · Post by **Doublespeak** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:32 pm

BTW, where's the link on the theme's history? I didn't see it in this thread.

From Agent13: http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/trek1.htm

Anyone else interested in reading another take on Gene's tight fisted ness, should check out Harlan Ellison's the City on the Edge of Forever: The Original Teleplay. The original teleplay is great, but the real gem is Harlan explaining what happened to it in the begining. Great Shatner story too.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 52-6707162

RalphP · Post by **RalphP** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:31 pm

On 2002-01-24 01:59:00, RebLaw wrote:
Vulcans should look like elves in dnd.. FLAT CHESTED imho...RebLaw

Would this be a good place to note that I've long thought that Pete Townsend (guitarist for "The Who") would make a fine looking Vulcan?

RwP

Catz Bartlett · Post by **Catz Bartlett** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:48 pm

Meh...D&D elves aren't THAT flat-chested...

Then again, I used to think that femme dwarves had beards, just because of a certain SNES Final Fantasy game...stupid Cecil...

*Kludge* · Post by ***Kludge*** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:42 pm

T points out how expensive ST:TOS was. Does anyone know how the price of production has changed over the years? I seem to recall that when ST:TNG was on they were buggeting about $1M per ep.

I have read (Source: Uncle John's Bathroom Reader) that the effects budget for TNG was actually lower than TOS's in real terms (ie adjusted for inflation). The result: cheap and ingenious special effects on TNG, like the surface of an unstable sun made by shining a stage lamp through a box covered in oatmeal, then jiggling the box gently while filming.

And the Enterprise theme song is bad - not just because it's got lyrics, but because 1) it's so out of character with the rest of the ST series, and 2) the music+images seem to me to be a massive American patriotic slap on the back. Now I admire America's clever ability to get people into space, but doesn't it seem to you that the series' diversity has recently taken quite a sharp nosedive? The song just seems to highlight it: "I

T'Renn · Post by **T'Renn** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 1:05 am

On 2002-02-21 08:55, Nullset wrote:
What's with the "NX class" bit though? Couldn't they differentiate the registry number from the type of ship? Even is this is Star Fleet's first really big thing, they've built other ships before, you'd think.

You're right about that... Of course, since usually they'd name the class for the first ship of that class, that would make it the Enterprise-class starship Enterprise.

T'Renn "Department of repeditive redundancy department" Vraomrell

Cironian · Post by **Cironian** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 4:31 am

Hey, girl dwarfs *are* supposed to have beards. Didnt you ever read Discworld?

Nullset · Post by **Nullset** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 5:37 am

Well Kuldge, I have to agree with you to a certain extent. I didn't mention the over American aspects of the Enterprise intro montage because it just seemed redundant. A big American corporation making a TV show for an American audience during a time when the country is troubled? Of course they're waving the flag. That's how they make money.

It would have been nice to see shots of a Russian Proton lifting off. And MIR. The Proton mostly because, well, it a Proton and that's all that needs to be said...

Anyway, the lack of continuity between the shows by not having a pseudo-classical theme does stand out, but also does a decent job of showing how much closer to our current world scenario the Enterprise story is. Actually I blame this discontinuity on DS9, since they were the first not to use the StarTrek theme. By not using varations of the original theme for _all_ the shows they open up the view that there is no overarching theme for Star Trek. People who's first view of the ST universe was Voyager, DS9, or Enterprise won't see the pseudo-classical piece that Trekkers think of as "TREK", is anything special.

As for the link to the origin story, I guess I need to see the eye doctor!

Later.

*Kludge* · Post by ***Kludge*** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:53 am

On 2002-02-22 05:37, Nullset wrote:
Well Kuldge, I have to agree with you to a certain extent. I didn't mention the over American aspects of the Enterprise intro montage because it just seemed redundant. A big American corporation making a TV show for an American audience during a time when the country is troubled? Of course they're waving the flag. That's how they make money.

Ugh - true, sort of. It kind of suggests that the audience they're pitching for is prime-time America, though. I'd say that was a bit short-sighted, since trek shows do run overseas for an awful long time, and even in America surely the core audience is sci-fi fans. I won't be so naive as to suggest that there aren't jingoists among sci-fi fans (indeed, I worry that every time I talk to Americans I come off as one myself), but since most of the American fans I've spoken to have seemed reasonable and thoughtful people, it just seems to me that they're being given a bad image by the corporations. (Also, how troubled was America before 9/11? Surely this theme-tune must pre-date that.)

It would have been nice to see shots of a Russian Proton lifting off. And MIR. The Proton mostly because, well, it a Proton and that's all that needs to be said...

Our only spaceperson (Helen Sharman) was a cosmonaut, so I'd have accepted a shot of a Russian lifter. And as far as I know our stupid government doesn't contribute much (if anything) to ESA, so I doubt we'll be getting any astronauts soon.

[ This Message was edited by: *Kludge* on 2002-02-22 06:55 ]

Nullset · Post by **Nullset** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:12 am

Americans, in general, were getting a bit depressed about the economy in summer 2001. Large scale layoffs were occuring or being planned. The government handed out $300 per taxpayer to stimulate the consumers. And every one of the media outlets were gunning to be the first to declare the US was in a full-blown RECESSION. Idiots. They just couldn't wait. So, certainly not the US's darkest time, but not a lot of people were happy about the state of the nation.

As for Paramont, ever since they started UPN, I've been under the impression that having a ST program as that network's flagship was the only reason to keep producing new Trek. I'm afraid I don't know much about their international distribution schemes.

Sci-Fi fans in the US? I'd guess this board is likely representitive, if more on the liberal and inclusive side. But ST is being produced (though maybe not _written_) for Guth's cousin.

And how could I forget that the Proton has been key in getting the largest modules of the real life Space Station Alpha into space.

What has me curious is how the ST history has been retconned again. As of DS9 and First Contact, the Eugenics Wars did occur. Khan and his cronies did rule large parts of the world for a time. But what happened to the nations of Earth after first contact with the vulcans? Is Earth united? Did the Federation incorporate before or after the first extra solar colonies developed? There's some very interesting, very busy times that are not being mentioned (or I've jsut not heard) that would be most interesting to find out about.