You're jerking my chain

Postby Quinch on Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:12 pm

Wanderwolf wrote:Ny suspicion that Beltane is not even intended to be like a Wiccan is growing, here...


Well, if memory serves, Ben's characterization of Beltane was that the was "not a Wiccan. She's more of a grab-bag pagan."

Too lazy to look up the comic, though.
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Postby Tuyu on Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:18 pm

If it hits the news, I wonder if Lily's grandparents will be showing up? :twisted:
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Postby Namrepus221 on Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:22 pm

Acctaully Ben would kinda know when he bought the property (the place is supposidly haunted remember)

Also ppl have been bringing up good arguements that why would belentine want to further descerate an indian sacred ground by having a ceremony on Ben's property (Any one else remember Poltergeist?).

Honeslty. Ben should let her do it. Just charge them an arm and a leg to rent out the place.

I think Ralph had a brain fart when he wrote this cause it doesn't make any logical sense for the how and why.
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Postby StrangeWulf13 on Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:25 pm

Eh, I don't think I'd let her on, just on principle. I can't please the church ladies, but there's no reason to antagonize them. Plus, as a Christian I can't really support Beltane's views or beliefs. Letting her practice on my property would show that I do support them, and likely make the local public start listening to the church ladies more.

In short, a loss of business, and as the owner of the arcade, Ben's first duty in this instance is to his welfare, and that of his wife. He won't do anything he finds morally wrong, yet I know he will consider what is best for his profits here. Capitalism is important if you wish to do well in a business.

Ah well, it's really up to him. I'm sure he'll make the best decision he can, with a little help from Lily, his workers, and the posse.
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Postby Sharuuk on Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:35 pm

Even better.....pull a "Grampa Feldspar" on her......let her have her "ceremonies" on the grounds......but sic the posse on 'em......talk about insuing chaos!!!!

And get the old biddies in on it too. Just like Ben told Gramps when he threatened to "call the authouities"....."Good, you do that.....and when they get here you can tell them how my little friends vanished into thin air."

Peckensniff and her crowd screaming about disappearing flying green demons would really bolster their credibility.......riiiiiight. :twisted:

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Postby UncleMonty on Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:44 pm

Well, if it was me instead of Ben, I'd:

(1) Look up all available documentation regarding Beltane's claim.
(2) Find the nearest thing available to a Native American shaman, and ask his opinion.
(3) Do whatever seems most entertaining, given the information I've collected.
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Postby RHJunior on Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:50 pm

Deckard Canine wrote:If I learned that my home was on ground sacred to Native Americans, I'd start looking for a new one. In fact, sometimes I toy with the idea of moving out of the U.S. just to live on unstolen land. Okay, that may be hard to find, but I'd settle for land that wasn't stolen in the last 500 years and never returned even partly.


Why, is retail on the moon that attractive?

"Fair" or not, the Native Americans lost their land the same way that every other square inch of terrain on the planet outside of--- MAYBE--- the South Pole has been gained or lost for thousands of years: by right of conquest. And they spent all that time prior to the arrival of Europeans squabbling amongst THEMSELVES over territory, same as went on everywhere else. They had raids, they had wars, they had "border" conflicts.... the fact that the borders weren't drawn on maps and the wars were fought with stones and sticks makes them no less violent or motivated by avarice and misanthropy. And I guarantee you, every bit of land from sea to shining sea swapped owners unwillingly at least a half dozen times before any palefaces set foot on it.

So, unless you want to set up in the Sea of Tranquility or spend your life chucking rocks at penguins in your front yard, you're going to have to lay off the "stolen from the Indians" riff. Nothing on the planet was ever gained by beating on old graves.
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Postby MikeVanPelt on Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:20 pm

Deckard Canine wrote:I figure if two highly opposed sides are presently against me, I'll try to patch things up with one of [the pagans]. Angsty Christian biddies are a more influential force these days, but they're also harder to please.


Well, one issue here is that Ben's a Christian himself, and so is Lily. His plan, last we saw, was to talk with the church ladies in the morning and try to calm their fears about the arcade. Maybe he's going to try to get his own pastor to show up and try to reason with them. Or that other pastor, the one who was going to bring his youth group to the arcade.
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Postby Earl McClaw on Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:52 pm

UncleMonty wrote:Well, if it was me instead of Ben, I'd:
(1) Look up all available documentation regarding Beltane's claim.
(2) Find the nearest thing available to a Native American shaman, and ask his opinion.
(3) Do whatever seems most entertaining, given the information I've collected.
:twisted:

I had very similar thoughts, but I'd require Beltane to produce notarized (i.e. independently authenticated) documentation of her claim. I'd also make sure to find out what tribe makes claim of the land (and contact them on the matter). While she's off collecting that, I'd sit down with Lily and the other interests in the arcade and discuss what to do.

I'd also like to mention a little legal precident called "abandonment". A church that's been left unattended / unclaimed for long enough needs re-sanctifying, so I'd expect that an "ancient hallowed Indian ground" that is now in a developed area - complete with a decades old house - would either have outstanding claims against it or no longer be remotely "hallowed".

But as to what specifically to do...

The arcade - or some part of the grounds - could be rented out for a function. But there should be conditions on this, such as "no nudity", "no open flames", etc. Perfectly reasonable requirements, but I doubt Beltane's coven would want to agree to them. Renting the space and time would be a business arrangement.

Which has absolutely no bearing on the religious issues. Religion isn't the arcade's business. Allowing Beltane's coven to celebrate there also opens the door for the "church ladies". So no matter what authentic proof Beltane can produce, Ben is more than justified in refusing her.
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Postby Squeaky Bunny on Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:17 pm

UncleMonty wrote:Well, if it was me instead of Ben, I'd:

(1) Look up all available documentation regarding Beltane's claim.
(2) Find the nearest thing available to a Native American shaman, and ask his opinion.
(3) Do whatever seems most entertaining, given the information I've collected.
:twisted:


(4) Go to Beltain and say shaman you! :P
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Postby Sciguy on Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:38 am

You know, Beltane was a terror about how the workplace stiffled her religous beleafs about Christmas time.

Wouldn't this be hypocrytical of her, asking to put her relgous ritual in the arcade?

A ritual is more intense then a celebration.
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Postby MikeVanPelt on Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:19 am

Sciguy wrote:You know, Beltane was a terror about how the workplace stiffled her religous beleafs about Christmas time.

Wouldn't this be hypocrytical of her, asking to put her relgous ritual in the arcade?


Yes, it would be.

Does anyone think that would slow her down at all?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?
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Postby Kerry Skydancer on Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:28 pm

Stop her? Heh. That sort -lives- to be hypocritical.

Beltane and Pecknsnif are two facets of the same flawed gem. Any suggestion that you don't immediately agree with all of their beliefs, and you're opposing them, and are therefore the Enemy. And neither one will admit that they themselves are far more intolerant than the folks they are railing against.

Pecknsnif is how it looks when the majority culture is more-or-less on their side; they look for minor deviations from what they consider perfection. No True Christian would have an arcade, etc...

Beltane is what you get from a minority religion in a society with religious freedom. Any mention of the fact that they -are- a minority is oppression, including any mention of the majority culture. (And the detail that if the majority truly -was- oppressive, they'd be looking at jail or worse is conveniently ignored.)

Ain't neither one of 'em pretty.
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Postby Wallaroo_Blacke on Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:37 pm

Upon reading the January 4th strip... why
do I feel that the contents of the septic tank
is gonna collide with the rotational atmospheric
distributor when those two forces cause enough
conflictive energy to tap into the supernatural
anomolii enough to get Mulder and Sculley into
the whole affair?

Translation: Why do I feel that
the poop is gonna hit the fan when Peckinsniff sees
Beltaine performing a pagan ceremony, and the
two cause enough supernatural energy to cause
something freaky to occur?

I hope I didn't by chance break the 4th wall. :o
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Postby Deckard Canine on Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:53 pm

Beltane would probably say that she's not being hypocritical because her coven's ritual isn't exactly a public affair. They wouldn't be doing it for all the customers to see. Or would they?

Wallaroo_Blacke wrote:I hope I didn't by chance break the 4th wall. :o


What do you mean? I thought only characters could do that.
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Postby Earl McClaw on Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:10 pm

Now I'm wondering if Ben's going to refuse ("this is an arcade, not a place of worship"), causing Beltane to organize a protest for "oppressing" her faith.

Then we see Beltane and Pecknsnif protesting side-by-side... for however long it takes for them to realize they're protesting completely opposite positions. ("He's promoting paganism!" "Well, he won't let me hold my pagan ceremonies!")

That should make for an interesting display in front of the arcade.
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Postby Atarlost on Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:03 am

In Ben's place I'd go with a simple "being associated with pagan rites would hurt my marketability." Having grab bag pagans engaging in random idolotry on your property is a good way to lose your target demographic. Nobody wants their kids associating with new age pseudo-wiccans. The real thing aren't so scary, but Beltane seems to belong to the scientology of paganism.
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Re: You're jerking my chain

Postby TMLutas on Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:49 pm

The JAM wrote:And no one pointed out this to him or the former owners because....? ;)


Perhaps it's simply not true? Just because a coven holds a belief does not make it gospel truth. They are known to just make stuff up in their myth making efforts, exaggerating the age and falsifying the provenance of modern wiccan belief systems for instance. That's not to say that this is the case here but it certainly should not be dismissed out of hand.
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Postby TMLutas on Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:51 pm

Sciguy wrote:The Ladys probably got word of this and were there to shut it down.

As for Beltane and her Coven, I say, "Just say no." There's respecting another's beleafs, and then there's letting a worship of something toehr then your God in the home you sleep, eat, and live in.


In the US, you're pretty much required to observe a truce in public. But the arcade is not "public" but rather private property and the residence of the owners, both of whom are fairly serious christians. Christians aren't supposed to promote other religions.
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Postby TMLutas on Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:59 pm

Deckard Canine wrote:If I learned that my home was on ground sacred to Native Americans, I'd start looking for a new one. In fact, sometimes I toy with the idea of moving out of the U.S. just to live on unstolen land. Okay, that may be hard to find, but I'd settle for land that wasn't stolen in the last 500 years and never returned even partly.

I'd've considered letting the coven do their thing, depending on the details of their rites. Hey, saying no isn't going to make them less devoted. I figure if two highly opposed sides are presently against me, I'll try to patch things up with one of them. Angsty Christian biddies are a more influential force these days, but they're also harder to please.


You know, some of that land was bought, fair and square. The Manhattans, for instance gave up their title to their ancient lands for a whole ~$50 in trinkets. Then again, their "ancient lands" it was discovered later, had only been moved onto about 50 years prior so who was conning who? The Dutch got the better of the deal but there's nothing unfair about that. Hard work made New Amsterdam, not theft.

As for the wiccans being easier to please, did you read the archives when Beltane went on an anti-christmas rampage? That was no fun for Ben. At least Ben knows the Bible and can trade quotes with thee christian ladies club. They, more or less, share a vocabulary.
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