You're jerking my chain

Postby Zorro on Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:29 pm

Well here is the thing, American Indian Theology is in DIRECT opposition to Gothic and New Age Religion Ideas.

American Indians were more or less sun worshipers. Pagan yes but not so very different from Egyptian beliefs.

AMERICAN Indians FEAR being buried in the ground and fear dying at night.

Cherokee and Apaches have EXTREME fears of necromancy and the undead. Some new age religion witch would be the Antichrist to American Indian religious practices.

And YES American Indians do still believe in witches. At least up til 1998 when I last asked some relatives in Oklahoma on the reservation.

When my mother died she was TERRIFIED about being buried in the ground because "The Worms Would Get Her." Among the Cherokee being devoured by worms is their Hell.
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Postby TMLutas on Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:40 pm

Namrepus221 wrote:Acctaully Ben would kinda know when he bought the property (the place is supposidly haunted remember)

Also ppl have been bringing up good arguements that why would belentine want to further descerate an indian sacred ground by having a ceremony on Ben's property (Any one else remember Poltergeist?).

Honeslty. Ben should let her do it. Just charge them an arm and a leg to rent out the place.

I think Ralph had a brain fart when he wrote this cause it doesn't make any logical sense for the how and why.


Wiccans make precious little logical sense. How a religion that maybe dates back to the 1920s can stand making the claims they do without spontaneously combusting of embarrassment is a mystery to me.
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Postby MikeVanPelt on Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:04 pm

TMLutas wrote:Wiccans make precious little logical sense. How a religion that maybe dates back to the 1920s can stand making the claims they do without spontaneously combusting of embarrassment is a mystery to me.


Modern-day Wicca is to original paganism as the SCA is to the real middle ages, more or less.

I heard one Wiccan, quite a few years ago, say he liked Wicca because "It's a religion you make up as you go along." I'll give him a bunch of points for honesty, but that sure seems more like a bug than a feature to me.

A pagan priest on another mailing list I'm on said actual "truth claims" are not only beside the point, "true/false" isn't even a meaningful question in paganism, at least, as he practices it. He's pretty adamant that truth claims about any religion are "bad".

He's also a pure philosophical materialist, disbelieving in the existence of anything "supernatural." His opinion (which he freely admits is not shared by all neo-pagans) is that the pagan rituals "fit" human psychology the way we evolved from bands of apes to tribes of humans. The "magick" is entirely psychological.

(A materialist magician... Didn't Screwtape have something to say about that?)
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Postby Frigidmagi on Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:57 am

You know, some of that land was bought, fair and square. The Manhattans, for instance gave up their title to their ancient lands for a whole ~$50 in trinkets. Then again, their "ancient lands" it was discovered later, had only been moved onto about 50 years prior so who was conning who? The Dutch got the better of the deal but there's nothing unfair about that. Hard work made New Amsterdam, not theft.


Oh it gets better man. The tribe that "sold" the Isle of Manhattan didn't really live there. They just used the island as a base for fishing. So these pale faced dutchmen come up to them asking to buy an island that isn't really there and offer trade goods (may have only 50$ to the dutch but other tribes deeper in the interior would pay alot more for them) and a light bulb went off.

Both sides walked away that day thinking the other group a bunch of suckers and thus the tradition of Manhattan real estate was born...
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Postby Wanderwolf on Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:03 am

Oh, it gets better...

See, the Dutch traders that bought Manhattan Island arrived in early winter. The tribe they found there liked the early-winter fishing, you see. But since the Dutch traders didn't know that, they paid $50 for some shoreline property, and were required to take Manhattan Island as part of the deal. (It was a swamp back then.)

Comes the spring, and here comes another tribe. "What are you doing on our land?"

"Wait, your land? We bought this land two months ago!"

"Two... ? Oh, those guys. We let them use this land in early winter, in exchange for... well, anyway, it's our land. But we'll gladly sell it to you."

So the Dutch traders paid another $100 in trinkets, got more shoreline property, and had to take even more then-useless islands as part of the deal.

Those of you who know nomadic lifestyles know what's coming next: Three months later...

"What are you doing on our land?"

"Wait, what? But those guys three months ago..."

"Oh, the spring tenants? Yeah, we let them rent the place. They only have fishing and berry-picking rights, though. The hunting doesn't pick up around here until this season. But hey, we feel badly about it, so we'll gladly sell you the land..."

You guessed it: Another $150.00 down the hole, and even more outlying islands that they had to take as part of the "bargain". And then, years later, the English took over. changing it from New Amsterdam to New York.

They say Manhattan Island's purchase was a huge swindle, and they're right. But it wasn't the Indians who got swindled. (Heh. First ever sublease real estate scandal in New York.)

Yours truly,

The wolfish,

Wanderer

(P.S.: This is why I get an unintentional laugh out of one particular "My Favorite Martian" episode, in which Tim (Bill Bixby) goes back in time and tells the Indians they're getting swindled. That's what HE thinks...)
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Postby Sharuuk on Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:17 am

Back to the original topic.....

All of my posting about pitting Beltane and Peckinsnif against each other aside.....and it was mostly tongue-in-cheek......ya gotta give Beltane credit for pure unadulterated chutzpah.

She creates all manners of chaos and heartburn at Bullzeye over Christmas decorations that she finds "offensive" up to the point of getting Ben fired for what initially was an accident....BTW....did anyone notice the dream catcher and other pagan 'artifacts' on display in her office? No one seemed too inclined to say anything about that.....

And now she has the unmitigated gall to come to Ben wanting to practice HER religion on HIS PROPERTY with full knowledge that his Christian beliefs are totally at odds with hers.

I'll give her this....she's got a set on her. (figuratively)

Ben should simply tell her no because he doesn't want this kind of activity on his property.....period. And since it's his private property, Beltane's got nothing to say about his decision. She want's to push it....get a restraining order....she keeps pushing, tresspass her.....she still doesn't get the hint....she gets prosecuted.

Religious freedom is a double-edged sword....you'll cut yourself on the backswing if you're not very careful.

*Raises gallon-size mug of Long Island Iced Tea*

Here's to Beltane decapitating herself.

*Downs it in 2 gulps.*

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RE: You're jerking my chain

Postby Roberto the Dane on Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:57 am

Kerry Skydancer wrote:(snipity snip)

Ain't neither one of 'em pretty.


I beg to differ. :)

Beltane skyclad. Mmm mmm good. :shucks:

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Postby Madmoonie on Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:54 am

Actually, Sharuuk, Beltane did NOT know that Ben was in charge of the arcade when she went there to ask...about whatever it is she wanted.
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Postby Sharuuk on Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:16 am

Madmoonie wrote:Actually, Sharuuk, Beltane did NOT know that Ben was in charge of the arcade when she went there to ask...about whatever it is she wanted.


Incorrect my friend..TTBOMK she didn't know Ben owned the place when she first came to him to gripe about Penny....and even that (the gripe) was after she got back from the restroom.

From the dialog in the first panel of this latest strip, I get the impression she left for a bit and then came back.....so at this point in time, she most certainly does know that (1) Ben is the owner of GH, and (2) from the fiasco at Bullzeye, she is fully aware that Ben is a Christian.

Regardless though.....now that she knows Ben owns the place, she still asked to use his private property to conduct her religious ceremonies on under the pretext (maybe?) of it's being on hallowed Indian ground.

Like I said.....points for Chutzpah.

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Postby Sharuuk on Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:47 am

From the dialog in the first panel of this latest strip, I get the impression she left for a bit and then came back...


Sorry Madmoonie....my bad....I just went back over the strip and my error was misreading the word "Now" in Ben's dialog. The emphasis I mentally put on it was in the imperitive interrogative "NOW what do you want?" Rather than the calmer....."Now, what do you want?"

Still though.....she now knows Ben owns the place and still asked to use his property for her rituals.

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Postby Madmoonie on Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:45 pm

Yayyyy! I was right. Going to have to write that down. Anyway, yes, you are right, she does.....um.....Chutzpah, I believe it was. I doubt she is going to realize the irony of this.
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Postby Axelgear on Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:41 pm

I think it's worth pointing out that ALL ground is Sacred to most Native Tribes. Some may have slightly more significance, but they were typically nomadic, so the Dead often were either burned, slung up on a stand or in a tree for the birds to eat (Letting their body return to nature), or buried anywhere it was convenient. That's why it was so easy to take their land from them; they had no concept of land ownership typically.

That said, if someone asked me if "they and their coven could preform a ritual on my land" (If I had any, that is), they'd find themselves booted out of there right quick. Nothing against religious freedoms, I just have a thing against Witchcraft. If Natives asked me to preform a remembrance ceremony, no problem. But Witches gotta stay away from my property.
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Postby Persephone_Kore on Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:28 pm

I think by the time he asked her straight out why she'd come, it was probably better to go ahead and tell him. (I wonder if the "What's that supposed to mean?" was partly an attempt to dodge via belligerence.) No matter how oblivious she might be to anything else, I'm guessing she has figured out by this point that she is not likely to get what she wants out of Ben.

Mumbling "Oh, never mind" and slinking off, however, is not her usual style and would probably just make Ben suspicious.

Well, at least it would make ME suspicious!
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Postby TMLutas on Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:04 am

Persephone_Kore wrote:I think by the time he asked her straight out why she'd come, it was probably better to go ahead and tell him. (I wonder if the "What's that supposed to mean?" was partly an attempt to dodge via belligerence.) No matter how oblivious she might be to anything else, I'm guessing she has figured out by this point that she is not likely to get what she wants out of Ben.

Mumbling "Oh, never mind" and slinking off, however, is not her usual style and would probably just make Ben suspicious.

Well, at least it would make ME suspicious!


I suspect that Beltane does not run the coven and se was sent as an errand girl by those who do. This makes asking sort of mandatory I think. She knows, or thinks she knows the answer but has to ask anyway in order to stay out of trouble with the powers that be.

Make sense?
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Postby Rangers on Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:18 am

MikeVanPelt wrote:I heard one Wiccan, quite a few years ago, say he liked Wicca because "It's a religion you make up as you go along."


I remember saying something similar about being a Methodist once. Back when I was young and stupid.
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Postby TMLutas on Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:50 pm

rangers wrote:
MikeVanPelt wrote:I heard one Wiccan, quite a few years ago, say he liked Wicca because "It's a religion you make up as you go along."


I remember saying something similar about being a Methodist once. Back when I was young and stupid.


I don't know, an awful lot of episcopalians seem to share that opinion.
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