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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:55 am
by Namrepus221
I made this point to someone else in another chat.

The posse weren't Tulpa's.

According to several sources on the subject. A "Tulpa" has to be willed into existance. Someone has to want one to create one.

That being said Ben never really wanted them or understood why he had them. The "Tulpa" thing was just a name for somethign similar to what Ben had but wasn't the same.

Looking at it I would surmise that they were infact created by an outside force to guide Ben in his life to his ultimate destiny.

Looking at the way he was going he never would've had the confidence to ever ask out lily, to attempt the Arcade idea, etc, etc without some outside force to guide him along.

Were the "posse" brought to life by god to help ben? Possibly, makes sense when you think about it in some respects.

Also in the "new" story...who sent the "eggs" and why? Which makes even LESS sense than the original creation of them. Fix one plot hole...dig 2 more

Does anyone care that an "eastern religious idea" is in the comic? NOT ME. I'm not a very religious person in practice. I believe in god, I believe in jesus. I'm not so much into the whole "dogma" of some of my religion and I'm more than accepting of others if they have a theological difference of idea's.

I find if Ralph is changing everything because of a contradictory theological belief to be insulting. The posse never questioned ben's beliefs, in fact they were supportive of them and evne followed them (http://utlt.comicgenesis.com/d/20021216.html)

Hell ben took them to a priest and even he said that there was nothign to worry about because they had been sent to help Ben's life. http://utlt.comicgenesis.com/d/20020121.html .

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:06 pm
by Jace
Afraid I agree with Namrepus. It's a little insulting, not to mention verging on intolerant and bigoted, to completely overhaul the comic because somehow it suddently doesn't jibe with your religious beliefs.

Especially since RHJunior is the sole creative force behind the comic. He may discuss things with others, but ultimately he makes the choices as to where it goes. DC and Marvel have retconned or changed things from one day to the next because the creative staff keeps changing and different people have different ideas. That's not the case here. He chose to call them tulpas, he chose every step along the way. Surely when he decided on 'tulpa', he knew they were an Eastern thing. Nothing has changed there.

So to suddenly turn around and say 'weeeell, I don't like this anymore, I'm going to completely rewrite one of the core underlying facts of the comic, and I'm just going to do it in one immediate break', seems a bit of a disservice to the fans, as well as somewhat poor business sense on the part of a guy apparently trying to make a living at this. It's not dependable.

But, as I said, RHJunior ultimately makes the choices for the comic. Maybe he should have chosen more carefully.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:04 pm
by BoKiana
I suppose I'll put in my 2 cents.

I can't really say I'm all that happy with the change so far, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I'll stay my judgement for a later date, when I can actually see the changes that have been planned.

This just makes me wonder how it changes the "Tulpa Master gone mad", Waarhorse and Frisky's own posse.

Plus, Ben's posse's original goal was stated pretty clear in the beginning, and this retcon seems to throw a lot of things for a loop.

I'm skeptical, but I'm willing to wait and see.

Sad thing is, there goes my plan to commission a posse for Bo. :(

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:10 pm
by Shyal_malkes
I wouldn't think that it is entirely just philosophical (sp?).

if I were doing GH and decided to do a retcon, it'd be because Ben, with the posse as tulpas (or tulpa like) is just plain too powerfull.

case in point. durring the rescue from the bank robbery. it didn't matter that the bad guys had guns, they were just *poit*ed away. Ben could literally steal or obtain virtually anything, he's even telleported himself. and that's just the possabilities in the posse alone, combine with the potentials that many of the other plots bring in and I get an image coming.

Ralph wants to take the comic somewhere but he can't. why? because going somewhere requires a dilema of some sort... but, if that dilema is too easily solved with say, the plots that have already happened rewriting the rules, then the story will never go where he wants it to because the problems solve themselves before he can even use them.

if that is the case that would be a big enough reason to me to retcon something.

when making a character I uaually have to figure out the world that character lives in and avoid making that character too powerfull. then it just loses it's sense of fun entirely.

sorry for the rant, it was just supposed to be my own 2 cents.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:28 pm
by DracoDei
The latest comic has shifted my view of this from "Slightly Pessimistic" to "Mostly Optimistic"

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:39 pm
by Namrepus221
BoKiana wrote:This just makes me wonder how it changes the "Tulpa Master gone mad", Waarhorse and Frisky's own posse.


That's been brought up before.

The Ookami Lobo arc was pretty outlandish, but it would be explanable that those were "real" tulpa's instead of the "In name only" ones that the posse were (see my previous post for information)

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:42 pm
by LoneWolf23k
Namrepus221 wrote:
BoKiana wrote:This just makes me wonder how it changes the "Tulpa Master gone mad", Waarhorse and Frisky's own posse.


That's been brought up before.

The Ookami Lobo arc was pretty outlandish, but it would be explanable that those were "real" tulpa's instead of the "In name only" ones that the posse were (see my previous post for information)


Alternatively, that could be the result of Goblins hatching in an insane asylum..

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:46 pm
by The JAM
Concerning saved "furries", in my fanfics, I call non-human Christians "Waiting Ones", according to Romans chapter 8.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:28 pm
by Jace
Namrepus221 wrote:The Ookami Lobo arc was pretty outlandish, but it would be explanable that those were "real" tulpa's instead of the "In name only" ones that the posse were (see my previous post for information)


Meh, that kinda lessens the impact though. I mean, Ben is no longer a 'tulpa master', so there's no personal relevance, or even any real connection to the main story.

I mean, 'tulpa master gone mad' could have had Ben fearful of turning out the same way, or wondering if his tulpas were a sign of some submerged madness, or anything. Or the posse themselves could have been watchful of Ben to try make sure they didn't turn out like that. There were possibilities as to what it could mean for Ben and the gang.

Now it just seems like "Oh, scary monsters!"

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:42 pm
by BrockthePaine
It's a little insulting, not to mention verging on intolerant and bigoted, to completely overhaul the comic because somehow it suddently doesn't jibe with your religious beliefs.

Why are charges of intolerance and bigotry only leveled at Christians and never at anybody ELSE? I'm tired of artists who are so intolerant that they lace their comics with softcore porn, premarital sex, and language to shame a sailor. I'm tired of the Sufficiently Advanced Aliens showing up in sci-fi stories and magically making religion obsolete. And most of all, I'm tired of people coming in and telling me that because I'm living my life according to the religion that I have chosen, that I'm intolerant and bigoted.

/rant off

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:01 pm
by Jace
Hey, I'll label anyone as intolerant and bigoted if I feel that is the case. ANYONE.

And when you actively reject something, as is claimed to be the case here, because it does not fit within your own comfort zone of beliefs, so that it seems like you're even denying the possibility that, as quoted, "there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosphy"... that's the line.

These comics you mention... are the creators actively, either through the strips or the commentary themselves, depicting it as an outright defiance of your religion's beliefs? Or are they just, as is defended here, doing what they feel is right for their comic, portraying what they feel is appropriate for themselves? If it's the second one, that's not being intolerant of YOU. And if you don't like, don't read! Oh, and how I basically just said its ok for 'those other comics' to do what they feel appropriate, even as I comment here about the change to the posse? Note that its the change I object to, and the stated reason for it, not RHJunior's beliefs or desire to write from the standpoint of those beliefs.

As for sci-fi... science is about answers. Causes. Religion is about faith and belief. In broad view, the two are mutually exclusive, unless you ascribe to the belief that the hand of God is behind the movement of the smallest molecule. Which would be a valid standpoint from a faith standpoint. But given the difference, which is IMHO, answers vs belief, why is it surprising that a heavily scientific story makes little room for religion? In the context of the story, after all, science has effectively provided an understanding of the universe other than 'God created it'. And again, if its not actively or by implication saying that it is better without religion, if its not rejecting your beliefs deliberately, it's not being intolerant of you. Guys like Nietzche, including sci-fi writers who might explore his philosophy in their own works, are another matter, of course.

Lastly, it's not living your religion that makes you bigotted. Bigotry only comes through persecution and rejection of other life, cultures and beliefs. So long as you're not doing that, you're fine.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:00 pm
by BrockthePaine
Jace wrote:Lastly, it's not living your religion that makes you bigotted. Bigotry only comes through persecution and rejection of other life, cultures and beliefs. So long as you're not doing that, you're fine.

So how does this square with your assertion that overhauling the comic verges on intolerance and bigotry? This is

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:14 pm
by Nullcast
Wellcome to the retcon of doooooom.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:33 pm
by Jace
BrockthePaine wrote:
Jace wrote:Lastly, it's not living your religion that makes you bigotted. Bigotry only comes through persecution and rejection of other life, cultures and beliefs. So long as you're not doing that, you're fine.

So how does this square with your assertion that overhauling the comic verges on intolerance and bigotry? This is


Ok, I guess you missed the part where I said I objected to the change for the reason stated: IE, that it is to remove Eastern mysticism as a component of the story. Which would be "rejection of other life, cultures and beliefs". Note, however, that I did say 'verges' because it hasn't yet been stated that these things are outright wrong.

If he didn't want an Eastern Mysticism concept in his comic... he shouldn't have included it in the first place. That would be fine, because then he wouldn't even need to mention whatever views he might have on it.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:47 pm
by Namrepus221
Nullcast wrote:Wellcome to the retcon of doooooom.


I'm gonna second that...

This has gone from bad to worse. A theological debate where none should exist.

If you want to retcon out the whole tulpa thing. Erase out the "tulpa" discussion from chapter 21, have Ookami Lobo explain what one is and how it relates to the dragon pearls he's stealing when that arc happens and the "Master" being driven insane to create the ones released as weapons., the conversation between Lily and the dragon could be rewritten because of the "Mindless Idiocy" guy as well as a half assed cover up as to why Ben's aren't really Tulpa's by definition.

There retcon fixed, and everyone is freakin happy. Minor changes to the story to tweak meanings and make the story flow easier.

Thank you, I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 pm
by Jace
I did want to ask why it wasn't easier to just say 'Uh, yeah, tulpa is one name for the phenomenom, but the Posse are something more/else/different than that.' Is it so hard to gloss over it and say that tulpas are just the Eastern documenting of a more widespread occurrence, one which is not necessarily limited to a particular denomination?

But hey, for all I know, that's all been discussed before...

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:59 pm
by Ransom Returns
Jace wrote:
BrockthePaine wrote:
Jace wrote:Lastly, it's not living your religion that makes you bigotted. Bigotry only comes through persecution and rejection of other life, cultures and beliefs. So long as you're not doing that, you're fine.

So how does this square with your assertion that overhauling the comic verges on intolerance and bigotry? This is


Ok, I guess you missed the part where I said I objected to the change for the reason stated: IE, that it is to remove Eastern mysticism as a component of the story. Which would be "rejection of other life, cultures and beliefs". Note, however, that I did say 'verges' because it hasn't yet been stated that these things are outright wrong.


Not to pull this OT, but simply rejecting a "life, culture, and belief" as wrong, immoral, etc. is not bigoted, certainly not in and of itself. It's simply a form of discernment.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:17 pm
by Jace
Simple rejection? No, not bigotted. If he'd simply never used 'tulpa' it wouldn't matter in the slightest, there'd be no point in bringing any of it up.

I'm just hung up on the point where all of a sudden this Eastern concept he chose to use is apparently suddenly no longer acceptable... it was Eastern at the time, it didn't change into that overnight...

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:46 pm
by Ransom Returns
Not sure.

People change their minds over time, go through different stages of life. Maybe he thought it was ok then, but has grown concerned with it over time.

Ann Rice changed her perspective from when she wrote vampire novels to novels about Christ, Tony Stewart switched from Indycar to Nascar full time, etc.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:48 pm
by Calbeck
Weeeeeell, I'm not really having any problems here.

To me, what it seems like is that Ben's subconsciously-manifested psuedobeings decided to enter the physical realm via inserting their spirits into the goblin eggs. If it weren't for the "ALERT! ALERT! RETCON IN PROGRESS!" warning, I think it pretty much would have gone seamlessly, with Sheldon explaining the situation in the next strip.

And as far as RH's religion goes, note that he's previously had no problem with mixing religion and magic. Magic, to Ben, is merely another part of God's creation, at least insofar as it works more like physics as opposed to calling on "nether powers" for the juice. Tulpas, elves, talking raccoons with glowing swords, and now goblins, all coexist in universes where God also exists.

So what's the problem?