There be goblins here...

Postby Atarlost on Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:34 am

I have to agree. The tulpa concept was original. This is just plain wierd. And a horrible shade of green.
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Postby Nick012000 on Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:03 am

Me? I think this is hilarious.

It seems to me that RHJunior is lampooning retcons.

The nature of the universe just retroactively changed. Thing is, Ben noticed. In a real retcon, noone notices. They were just misinformed previously. This seems like a Groundhog Day-style setup, with Ben remembering things that noone else does, and it falling to him to fix things.
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Postby Starcat5 on Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:18 am

I think I see where the problem comes in. When RHJunior desided that the Possie were in fact tulpa, and tried to set it down in stone, he introduced so many other elements that he feels that he can no longer work with them all, and writing around them was sending the plot to places he didn't really want to go. Heaven knows, I fully expected Penny's internet friend to turn out to be a REAL vampire, rather than just playing the part.

Thing is, the tulpa thing didn't NEED explaining to begin with. The comic already worked with that fact as both unknown and unknowable. We were already pointing out that the Possie were on their way to being individuals in their own right, rather than simply portions of Ben's brain given psudo-flesh. (They all have their own souls, as pointed out by the "Schlock/Steven King's 'It' Clown of Old Nature" storyarc.) They are as Real as their goblin counterparts, though perhaps not as Physical.

I'm still holding out hope that all this will work out for the best, but I fear that RHJunior might be throwing the praverbial baby out with the bathwater.
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Postby Daniel Meyer on Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:55 am

(looks at calendar)

Halloween IS coming....
CUAgain,
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Postby Namrepus221 on Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:19 pm

Daniel Meyer wrote:(looks at calendar)

Halloween IS coming....


Yes but April fools is further away...
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Postby Capnregex on Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:15 pm

I think I prefered the origional character designs..
They fit the personalities better.
Ah well, Ralphs perogative I suppose.
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Postby LeiraHoward on Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:17 pm

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who looked at this and went "oh NOoooo!"

Whoever posted that this is right up there with midichlorians and Greedo shooting first... you nailed it. That is EXACTLY the feeling I've got right now. :(

...That, and whoever heard of Goblins being *good* ?? From ancient times til today, the majority of references have goblins as BAD creatures...

(From Dictionary.com : "Goblin, gnome, gremlin refer to supernatural beings thought to be malevolent to people. Goblins are demons of any size, usually in human or animal form, that are supposed to assail, afflict, and even torture human beings: “Be thou a spirit of health or goblin damn'd, …”(Shak. Hamlet I, iv).")

Almost all references in literature have Goblins as demonic... and with the cartoonist's mostly moral, conservative comics... that strikes a dischord with me. :(

I'll wait and see... but initial viewing leaves me with ... "I have a bad feeling about this....."
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Postby Sun tzu on Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:21 pm

Goblins being good is not completely unprecedented.
And, after all, where there is free will, there can be good.
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Postby Namrepus221 on Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:19 pm

LeiraHoward wrote:I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who looked at this and went "oh NOoooo!"

Whoever posted that this is right up there with midichlorians and Greedo shooting first... you nailed it. That is EXACTLY the feeling I've got right now. :(

...That, and whoever heard of Goblins being *good* ?? From ancient times til today, the majority of references have goblins as BAD creatures...

(From Dictionary.com : "Goblin, gnome, gremlin refer to supernatural beings thought to be malevolent to people. Goblins are demons of any size, usually in human or animal form, that are supposed to assail, afflict, and even torture human beings: “Be thou a spirit of health or goblin damn'd, …”(Shak. Hamlet I, iv).")

Almost all references in literature have Goblins as demonic... and with the cartoonist's mostly moral, conservative comics... that strikes a dischord with me. :(

I'll wait and see... but initial viewing leaves me with ... "I have a bad feeling about this....."


That was me BTW.

And thank you.
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Postby BrockthePaine on Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:40 pm

Hey guys, why not give him the time to walk yall through all the changes he's planned before passing judgement? Like I've said, I wasn't entirely fond of the idea at first either, but now that I know more of what's planned, I think it'll be a change for the better. Just give RH the time to show you.

Sun Tzu wrote:And, after all, where there is free will, there can be good.

Fully agreed! I don't have any problem with goblins being good, as it involves trope subversion. I love trope subversions...
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Postby Capnregex on Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:45 pm

BrockthePaine wrote:Hey guys, why not give him the time to walk yall through all the changes he's planned before passing judgement? Like I've said, I wasn't entirely fond of the idea at first either, but now that I know more of what's planned, I think it'll be a change for the better. Just give RH the time to show you.

I just prefer the earlier artistic style. The personality representations seem more accurate as origionally drawn. If they hatch from eggs instead of directly from Ben's mind, no big.
I like the fuzzy little rabbit as a fuzzy little rabbit, and the vulture as a vulture.
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Postby MikeVanPelt on Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:17 pm

nick012000 wrote:Me? I think this is hilarious.

It seems to me that RHJunior is lampooning retcons.


Heh... I hope that's what's up.
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Postby Jace on Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:19 pm

BrockthePaine wrote:Hey guys, why not give him the time to walk yall through all the changes he's planned before passing judgement? Like I've said, I wasn't entirely fond of the idea at first either, but now that I know more of what's planned, I think it'll be a change for the better. Just give RH the time to show you.


Ok, fine... so tell us something. Does this wonderful plan that you're privy to explain exactly how THIS continuity relates to the "tulpa posse" continuity in such a way as to explain EVERY single thing that has already been established with this comic? Or are we just supposed to disregard all of that completely?

EDIT: Ok, so the first strip has been retconned too. So now Ben's been aware of the goblins from the beginning? Wait, what?
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Postby LoneWolf23k on Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:56 am

Well, I'm liking this so far.

...And I hope Penny's Goblin turns up in the comic permanently now.. :D
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Postby PeterSwinkels on Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:17 am

From what I've seen so far this retcon looks like an unnecessary attempt at trying to explain the posse's existence that is only making mess out of things and unnecessary in my opinion. But, it's Ralph's comic... I'm curious as to where this going, but so far I'm hoping this is a joke like other people suggested...
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Postby Maxgoof on Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:22 am

Here's the problem that Ralph faced:

He is a strong Christian. Suddenly he realizes that he has Eastern Mysticism as a major concept in his comic.

That's not all that bad, but how can you poke fun at wiccans and otherkin if your main character has aspects of his personality popping in and out having appeared basically out of nothing?
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Postby Ransom Returns on Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:00 am

Huh, that's actually a bit of an insite I didn't really see the fact that "tulpa" came from Buddhist ideas that much of a problem, although I'm somewhat strong on "all truth is God's truth," meaning it could represent something that's been described in eastern mysticism while not assenting that everything in it is true.

But if Ralph is uncomfortable then he certainly ought to do something about it. The irony of course is that someone has already implied that goblins are "demonic." Though given what we've seen in "TOTQ" they should know that the author has never been one to use conventional models for a mythical being, be it elves, dryads, goblins, boogeymen or whatever.
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Postby BrockthePaine on Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:03 am

FWIW, in some of my own writing the elves were the Big Bads and the orcs were the good guys. Can you say "trope inversion"?

And the origins of the goblins were actually from gnomes, and we all know that gnomes are the good guys for their roles as lawn ornaments...
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Postby Atarlost on Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:00 am

maxgoof wrote:Here's the problem that Ralph faced:

He is a strong Christian. Suddenly he realizes that he has Eastern Mysticism as a major concept in his comic.

That's not all that bad, but how can you poke fun at wiccans and otherkin if your main character has aspects of his personality popping in and out having appeared basically out of nothing?


So the problem is theological? I'm not sure tulpas are any more problematical than many things already in Ralph's comics. As an example take Christ's saving work. To fulfill the law he had to come as a man to die. Paul describes him as the second Adam. For a nonhuman to be redeemed he would have to come again as a member of that species. For a traditional furry you can ignore this. They tend to ignore speciation to a large degree. For Tales of the Questor this is a problem. Theologically it's a far bigger problem than Ben's mind budding like an onion. The tulpas come from Ben. It is entirely reasonably for them to fall (apart from Ben being a bear) under both Adam's sin and Christ's redemption. The only problem is to explain how they can exist. In cases like this it's traditional to quote Hamlet: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet (I, v, 166-167) They are simply an unexplained phenomenon just like the goblins ultimately must be, but they more clearly avoid the problem I mentioned with reference to TotQ.

The thing that really needs to be explained is why they are known and have a name in eastern religion but not in western. That I can do. Westerners Judaiochristian morality is two valued in a way I don't think eastern morality is. Christians would be more likely to simply manifest the traditional shoulder angel and shoulder demon. They would also, given the environment, be more likely to supress and deny the manifestations. In most eras those who could not hide their tulpas would tend to be stoned as a sorceror or burned as a witch. Nobody would be open enough about the phenomenon to give it a name independant of sorcery and witchcraft. Any westerners trying to discuss the phenomenon would need to find a new term because discussions were rare and secretive enough they never knew the other discussions esxisted. They were probably referred to as guardian angels or simply spirits until England conquered India. From then on anyone trying to research the phenomenon would probably encounter buddhist terminology simply because it was the first terminology available that really distinguished tulpas from angels (fallen or not) and ghosts. This does not necessarily mean the buddhists interpreted the phenomenon correctly any more than the fact that "energy" is derived from greek means the ancient greeks understood physics correctly. A modified tulpa approach is actually on safer theological ground than goblins in my view. A retcon to de-easternise the phenomenon is probably necessary, but it would really be, in my opinion, better to keep their origin and terminology the same.
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Postby BrockthePaine on Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:55 am

Atarlost wrote:So the problem is theological? I'm not sure tulpas are any more problematical than many things already in Ralph's comics. As an example take Christ's saving work. To fulfill the law he had to come as a man to die. Paul describes him as the second Adam. For a nonhuman to be redeemed he would have to come again as a member of that species. For a traditional furry you can ignore this. They tend to ignore speciation to a large degree. For Tales of the Questor this is a problem. Theologically it's a far bigger problem than Ben's mind budding like an onion.

I believe we discussed this ad nausem a few months back, and at least most of us agreed that if man were the original sinner and brought sin into the world for everybody, then man could provide the savior through which all have been saved. And going back through TotQ I see evidence to this in the comic itself.
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