heh teenagers

[Deflare]

Cowboys? Meh. Nothing wrong with being a ranch hand, but 'cowboys' have been over-glorified and become a symbol of America's knee-jerk reaction against legal authorities. I mean, we're talking about fancy vigilantes here.

8) You make that sound like a bad thing....

The thing about vigilante justice is that it isn't justice. A person is smart, but people are stupid; a vigilante mob will string up someone they 'know' to be guilty, and won't even bother thinking about evidence. The basis of the Enlightenment was the rule of law- vigilantes defeat the purpose.

[Madmoonie]

The thing about vigilante justice is that it isn't justice. A person is smart, but people are stupid; a vigilante mob will string up someone they 'know' to be guilty, and won't even bother thinking about evidence. The basis of the Enlightenment was the rule of law- vigilantes defeat the purpose.

(winces) Oh, now you've done it. (Dons Grunt armor and runs for cover)

(pops up again) Don't forget the viligante justice around 1849 gold rush or the fact KKK consider themselves as doing vigilante justice. So much for the Enlightenment. Arrrgh! I am not getting involved! RUN MOONIE RUN!

[Steltek]

Grandpappy told my pappy
"Back in my day, son,
a man had to answer
for the wicked things he done."
Take all the rope in Texas,
find a tall oak tree,
round up all o' them bad boys,
hang 'em high in the street,

for all the people to see...


...That justice is the one thing,
you should always find,
you gotta saddle up your boys,
you gotta draw a hard line,
when the gunsmoke settles,
we'll sing a victory tune,
and we'll all meet back,
at the local saloon

And we'll raise up our glasses against evil forces, singing
"Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses!"



Three, seven, seventy-seven!

(For those of you non-Montanans, that's an old Montana Vigilante code -- it means you've got three hours, seven minutes, and seventy-seven seconds to get out of town, or you'll be buried in a hole three feet wide, seven feet deep, and seventy-seven inches long. Montana Highway Patrolmen still wear a patch with "3-7-77" on it. 8) )

[Nikas_Zekeval]

On the one hand Viliglantes were sometimes prone to ignore the legal niceities of rules of evidence, and proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Not to mention the gangs that tried to use the term to cloak their actions in respectibility when they were in fact killing because they wanted to kill someone and/or terrorize several more.

OTOH what are you going to do when the nearest law is a week's ride or more one way (factiod: Circuit Court Judges first got the name because a judge would cover several courthouses/towns in a large area, riding from one to the next in a circuit to hear the local cases, rule, then ride on to the next town. Gives you an idea how thinly spread formal legal infastructure was in the Wild West) , or if the law, sometimes up to the level of the State's Governor and House are bought and paid for by someone who's interest is in seeing you don't get justice? (see, Cattle Barons for some examples) And when the State or Terroritoral Govenor is in someone's back pocket, guess who makes official requests to the federal level for Army troops? Some Vigilantes were nothing more than thugs with delusions of grandure. Some were citizens effectively on their own and trying to dispense justice and civilization as best they could.

Calling Americans Cowboys is not an insult. In the cultural mythos they are a symbol that sometimes you are on your own, and in that case if justice is to be done you might have to do it alone, or with a few friends or it won't get done. And a man sees justice done, even if it isn't always pretty, or neat.

[SirBob]

And a man sees justice done, even if it isn't always pretty, or neat.

*recalls a recent article in the local paper about a fellow who took it upon himself to go around and get rid of all the registered sex offenders in town, 'cept he got one of the addresses wrong and killed the guy next door*

Not pretty indeed.

[NydaLynn]

Quotes I agree with:

"Self-education is, I firmly believe, the only kind of education there is"
~Isaac Asimov

"Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."
~ C.S. Lewis

I do not know if everyone goes through 'teenage angst' stage. I do not feel I have. However, I do think everyone needs to go through a period of self discovery. If angst works for someone, so be it. Many things we experiance in teenage ages are just fazes.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

And a man sees justice done, even if it isn't always pretty, or neat.

*recalls a recent article in the local paper about a fellow who took it upon himself to go around and get rid of all the registered sex offenders in town, 'cept he got one of the addresses wrong and killed the guy next door*

Not pretty indeed.

Hmm, 'clean' Vigilantism requires certain conditions and entails certain responsibilities.

Conditions,
Under American government theory the police and cops are agents of the people, delegated authority to handle crimes and those that comitt them in place of the people.

'Clean' Vigilantism requires, in general or specific cases, that
A) those Agents are unavailable
B) those Agents are unwilling to discharge their duties, and/or
C) those Agenst are incapable of discharging their duties

Ever hear of the Goetz case? The viglinate shooting on the New York Subawy system? The massive immediate public support for his actions was because there was a widespread belief that the police in New York (and most big cities) where uninterested or so overwhelmed that save it happening to an important version, or being a 'major crime' like murder or rape they were uninterested in pursuing criminals. A 'simple' mugging wasn't worth their time unless the accused happened to drop in their hands.

'Clean' Vigilantism has certain responsibilities.
A) It is reactive. You do not do it on what someone MIGHT do, but what he has done. You do not go looking to provoke an incident either. (This is where Goetz might be on shaky ground, some accusations said he was looking for trouble. OTOH being armed on public transport, even in a 'bad part of town' is not sufficient in itself to be looking for trouble)
B) It is certain about it's target. That means it isn't someone heard someone say Joe did it, or that 'everyone thinks' Joe did it. It is several people saw Joe shoot the Sheriff, perferably unconnected people.
C) It's practioners are responsible for the outcome, even the mistakes. If it gets the wrong person, you committed murder, without the justification that you were dealing with a dangerous criminal.

That 'wack the sex offenders' list fails on several points. He killed for what someone might do, when the Law was apparently doing it's job, he was tried, convicted, sentanced, served time, and was still being watched after release (the sex offender registry) as a potential on going threat. If instead he armed himself with a shotgun and blew the guy's brains out without warning when the former-sex offender was crawling in through someone else's bedroom window then it would be a 'clean' act. Heck, depending on the location (and if the shooter was in his own house) the mere act of breaking into the house would make such a killing self defense.