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Well that clears that up. Hmmm, good points. Privately I thought the Jedi were kinda creepy myself. The whole Clone thing in particular struck me as really being OC for the morally upright Jedi.

My friend was a huge Star Wars fan for the first three movies and an avid reader of the Star Wars novels. All that ended with Episode one.

Apparently Lucas stipulated that any books written about the SW universe had to fit seamlessly with the movies. But apparently he ingored his own rules when starting the first three. (I wasn't as nitpicky)

My greatest complaint of the film comes from the line "Moral absoultes are only for the dark side!" Gee, I guess that means that when I go to church this sunday I'll listen to what Darth Priest has to say...

I'll give the movie credit for extra character development and interation, but to really enjoy it I had to check my morality, and common sense at the door.

So...

does anyone know of a video equivalent to lulu.com so the first TOTQ movie can be produced? (Without PC interference?)

Mikhail Dragoslav wrote:Well that clears that up. Hmmm, good points. Privately I thought the Jedi were kinda creepy myself. The whole Clone thing in particular struck me as really being OC for the morally upright Jedi.

Nevertheless, it wasn't the Jedi who killed the kids. Or who demanded that the kids be killed.

Or who engineered an entire war for profit, by negotiating secretly with both sides and lying to both sides.

The Jedi, as flawed as they were, were at least trying to operate to preserve the Republic, not turn it into something under their control. And they were operating in good faith, for whatever that might be worth.

*Sigh* Looks like I've found yet something else to disagree upon with Ralph...

Let's examine...

"Nabbed children all over the galaxy to raise in their Religious Cult"...

Ok, this might be the only real point here, although I don't see it as entirely sinister; don't we have stuff like private schools in the real world as well?

"exploited an entire race of lobotimized clones as cannon fodder"

Do note that, originally, that was the Sith Lords' idea, and the Jedi were just tricked into using that army, which then turned on them the moment Sidious initiated "Order 66"...

"Plotted an Assassination Attempt" ...Uh, if this refers to the confrontation against Palpatine, originally they were going there to arrest him... And if this refers to Yoda's later attack on the Emperor, are we now saying it's wrong to assassinate Dictators?

"And who's greatest hero stood and watched while his Padawan burned alive?"

Ok, now this is the line causing me the greatest amount of mental pain: ANAKIN TURNED EVIL! Obi-Wan tried to talk Anakin back to the Light Side, but couldn't, and eventually had to do what needed to be done. I mean, geez, it's not as if Anakin wasn't doing his best to kill him, after strangling his wife and slaughtering a bunch of kid jedi trainees...

Yes, the Jedi Order was somewhat bureaucratic and out of touch, but evil? ...Sorry, but I have to disagree there.

There's an issue about "nabbing kids from all over the galaxy", too - the idea that these were kids who were "strong in the Force", so, should they NOT receive training in it? I mean, is it possible theat they would have ended up being a menace to themselves and others if they hadn't received training?

Maybe I'm just blocking it out of my memory because the movies were so appalling, but I don't seem to remember that kids were given no choice at all, though. I think it was more along the lines of trying hard to persuade them and their families, so that this gift they had wouldn't be wasted. Could be wrong on that, like I said I don't remember -- but I don't think they were exactly kidnapped forcibly.

Like I said the Jedi had it comming. Using clones as cannon fodder was disgusting. I love how none of them even questioned it. "Yah, red shirts so we don't have to get our hands dirty" Now where is the closest Imperial Navy recruitment center?

LoneWolf23k wrote:"Nabbed children all over the galaxy to raise in their Religious Cult"...

Ok, this might be the only real point here, although I don't see it as entirely sinister; don't we have stuff like private schools in the real world as well?

Those private schools, however, do not take children as infants and completely cut off contact with the child's family.

LoneWolf23k wrote:"exploited an entire race of lobotimized clones as cannon fodder"

Do note that, originally, that was the Sith Lords' idea, and the Jedi were just tricked into using that army, which then turned on them the moment Sidious initiated "Order 66"...

And the Jedi did not question their origins when they were needed. "Oh, a dead Jedi Master supposedly ordered their creation? Who cares, we need to go take on some droids."

LoneWolf23k wrote:"Plotted an Assassination Attempt" ...Uh, if this refers to the confrontation against Palpatine, originally they were going there to arrest him... And if this refers to Yoda's later attack on the Emperor, are we now saying it's wrong to assassinate Dictators?

Actually, it's refering to Windu's argueing with Anakin. Anakin wanted to arrest Palpatine (if necessary) but Windu said that he was too powerful to live. Goes against the "all life is sacred" schpeal, doesn't it?

LoneWolf23k wrote:"And who's greatest hero stood and watched while his Padawan burned alive?"

Ok, now this is the line causing me the greatest amount of mental pain: ANAKIN TURNED EVIL! Obi-Wan tried to talk Anakin back to the Light Side, but couldn't, and eventually had to do what needed to be done. I mean, geez, it's not as if Anakin wasn't doing his best to kill him, after strangling his wife and slaughtering a bunch of kid jedi trainees...

But to just turn and walk away from him while he was burning? Either try and save him, so that he could be redeemed or put him out of his misery. Walking away solves nothing.

LoneWolf23k wrote:Yes, the Jedi Order was somewhat bureaucratic and out of touch, but evil? ...Sorry, but I have to disagree there.

Maybe not evil, but they were more the bad guys in Episodes 1-3 than Palpatine was.

- Mjolnir (aka TR-9902, NorthEast Remnant Garrison, 501st Legion of Stormtroopers)

Mjolnir wrote:<snip>

Maybe not evil, but they were more the bad guys in Episodes 1-3 than Palpatine was.

No. I REALLY take issue with that. Hello? Engineering the whole dam' war in order to seize power? Killing the kids? Remember that part? When exactly did killing kids become less evil than being stupid and out-of-touch??

Luna_Northcat wrote:No. I REALLY take issue with that. Hello? Engineering the whole dam' war in order to seize power? Killing the kids? Remember that part? When exactly did killing kids become less evil than being stupid and out-of-touch??

Yes, he engineered the war to take power, but what redeeming features did the republic have anyway? The whole thing was a massive amount a red tape that couldn't even make the most basic decisions without talking for years.

As for the kids, Anakin killed the kids. Palpatine might have put the general notion in his head, but Anakin actually killed them. Why did he do that? Because he turned to the Dark Side. Obvious, right?

Now, why did Anakin turn to the Dark Side? Becasue the Jedi forced him to. They would not let him see his mother or admit to his love for Padme. The Jedi forced him to cut off all ties with non-Jedi which he could not do. Whenever he tried to talk to any of them about it, they just went back to the same old thing, "the Code does not allow it." They didn't try and help him through it, they just told him to deal with it.

The Jedi tried to deny all emotion while the Sith tried to only use emotion. Neither worked. Only a balance of emotion and reason, of family and solitude, of reason and spirituality, can make you a strong, fullfilled individual. the Jedi and Sith both got it wrong. Luke got it right.

- Mjolnir

Mjolnir wrote:
Yes, he engineered the war to take power, but what redeeming features did the republic have anyway? The whole thing was a massive amount a red tape that couldn't even make the most basic decisions without talking for years.

Hm, basic redeeming features of the republic: there were checks on the power of individuals, and disagreements could be resolved without invasions, wars, assassinations, etc. And what about all the deaths brought about as the result of the engineered war? War, death, destruction, destruction of freedom...guess what, there ARE worse things than bureaucracy.

And, sorry, but lying to people to get them to do what you want is not acceptable. I don't care how good you think the ends are, the means matter; and if you can't get people to agree with you by telling the truth, then tough. I repeat, getting people to do what you want by lying to them is not acceptable.

Mjolnir wrote: As for the kids, Anakin killed the kids. Palpatine might have put the general notion in his head, but Anakin actually killed them. Why did he do that? Because he turned to the Dark Side. Obvious, right?

Now, why did Anakin turn to the Dark Side? Becasue the Jedi forced him to. They would not let him see his mother or admit to his love for Padme. The Jedi forced him to cut off all ties with non-Jedi which he could not do. Whenever he tried to talk to any of them about it, they just went back to the same old thing, "the Code does not allow it." They didn't try and help him through it, they just told him to deal with it.

You, sir, are reaching. No, I don't think the Jedi handled Anakin well, but neither did they force him to do anything; and you cannot say that what they said to him influenced him any more than what Palpatine said to him. Ultimately he made his own decision, based on the issues the Jedis didn't address, and the lies fed to him by Palpatine. And saying Palpatine wasn't responsible for the deaths of the kids is really, really disingenuous.

Mjolnir wrote: The Jedi tried to deny all emotion while the Sith tried to only use emotion. Neither worked. Only a balance of emotion and reason, of family and solitude, of reason and spirituality, can make you a strong, fullfilled individual. the Jedi and Sith both got it wrong. Luke got it right.

At last, you've said something I can agree with.

Remember, I'm coming at this from the Imperial POV. I am a Royal Guard, after all.

Luna_Northcat wrote:

Mjolnir wrote: The Jedi tried to deny all emotion while the Sith tried to only use emotion. Neither worked. Only a balance of emotion and reason, of family and solitude, of reason and spirituality, can make you a strong, fullfilled individual. the Jedi and Sith both got it wrong. Luke got it right.

At last, you've said something I can agree with.

And, really, that's the most important point, isn't it?

- Mjolnir

Yeah, and I'm a big fan of IMPS ( http://impstherelentless.com/ ), too.

But, I still stick at this -- there is nothing more evil than killing kids. (Well, not in these movies, anyway.)

I agree with that point. Especially when the kids think you're there to save them. (Which was a nice touch, IMHO.)

- Mjolnir

Mjolnir wrote:I agree with that point. Especially when the kids think you're there to save them. (Which was a nice touch, IMHO.)

- Mjolnir

Well it doesn make it a lot harder just to forgive and forget Vader at the end of Kedi.

Well, yes, absolutely - to both Mjolnir's and Soli's last points.

The Jedi never forced Anakin to do anything. Anakin's greed and hunger for power brought him to the dark side. His desire for power, to cheat death, and ultimately play GOD lead to his corruption. The Code was there to guide the Jedi. Everytime Anakin did something to violate the Code, he brought about more distruction that he was trying to avoid anyway. He was told to stay away from Palpatine's arrest but he went, stopped Wendu, and lead to the rise of the Emporer/ He pleged himself to the Dark Side and the Emporer to save Padme, when he ends killling her. Everytime Anakin's desires overstepped the Code, he brought about his own destruction. Even the reason he turned to the Dark Side, he destroyed. He wanted to save Padme. Anakin killed her in the end. He had become so corrupted he took away her will to live, not to mention actively trying to kill her. Anakin's own choices brought down the Republic but even worse, brought down everyting good in the galaxy, as well as destroying everything he loved. Anakin wanted more and more, but never understood what he had. Anakin destroyed himself.

I would point out that the Republic was already in a state of decline and decay. Not all of it can be pinned on Palpatine. His rise to power was due precisely to the sorry state the Republic was in. It is entirely possible, likely even, that even if he never came along someone else would've tried a similar coup or the Republic would've fractured apart into anarchy and civil war.

Even healthy state are occassionaly forced to endure a moron or fool for a leader. Such things are common. But if the state is healthy enough, it can endure such fools for leaders. But when a state falls into decay and becomes unhealthy, then it becomes impossible that even a dedicated and competant leader can stop its fall. Decay brings all sorts of opportunists out of the woodworks. Palpatine was simply the best one (being a Sith helped of course) but not the only one.

The Jedi were not in particularly good form themselves. They were tied to closely to the Chancellor and the Senate and so were forced to play the same political games as them, and played them badly at that. Their tactics were no worse than those of the Senate or any political body or organization, but they were so bloody transparent that they ended up the worse for them. The whole spying on Palpatine thing for one. They should've known that Anakin was unreliable and their efforts were so plain that Palpatine was able to use Anakin against the Jedi and manipulate them into ostracizing Anakin further. The Jedi practically handed Anakin to Palpatine on a silver platter. I'm not absolving Anakin of his responsibility for his choices and crimes, but the Jedi really SNAFU'd the whole situation too.

The use of the clones as cannon-fodder struck me as really immoral, as were the fact that the Jedi all became Generals. These guys work alone or in pairs. What do they know about leading armies? (The fact that the Republic had no standing army or preparations to conscript one was also pretty dumb). But using an entire race for one purpose: to wage war and die because they were trained and programmed to, how does that work with the super-morality of the Jedi?

My general feeling is that the Republic was corrupt and in decay and the Jedi were tainted by it too. I also got this impression of them being more concerned about the Senate than the people of the Republic and were isolated in their ivory temple. States don't just fall because of one oppurtunist, they also fall when no one wishes to defend the state. The Republic stopped being something worth defending and so the Empire rose.

And I still say that the movie was slanted against the Sith. Lucas's bad guys were pretty much all the people who drive economies forward, like banks and industries and traders; and his good guys were all socialist types who ignored the rules when they were inconvenient. Movies 4-6 looked like a rebellion against a corrupt Empire - movies 1-3 demonstrated that Palpatine was more like Sulla at the end of the Roman Republic period, trying to do -something- to keep the system from collapsing completely. Making the Sith look bad in the movies - heck, Lucas is just doing a Fahrenheit 911 on the poor guys.

of the star wars characters darth is my favorite.

anakin i think may have fulfilled his "destiny"

the jedi at the time were obviously "out of touch" to say the least, even yoda admitted that they had diminished in their ability to use the force

Yoda wrote: blind we must be if creation of this clone army we could not see

i think that was the quote anyway...

i think that a cleansing process was necessary cause even the people of the republic were so blind that they "with cheers and applause" lost the republic right out from under their noses.

anakin i think may resemble a good deal of the republican views, but as palpatine showed us, anyone with good ideals and not enough waryness is corruptable to doing something they shouldn't or wouldn't normally do.

obiwan's reaction i have mixed feelings about, first off he wasn't just leaving anakin, he was also trying to return to a major MAJOR crisis situation, if anakin didn't die... well so be it. if he did and died slowly, well darn it i've got a galaxy or two that is way out of line and i need to see what to do about it.

ok so it doesn't make perfect sense which is probably why it is realistic cause most people do things that don't make a lot of sense, especially when dealing with why i wanted to post on this topic at all!

i still think though that bringing leah and luke into the world fulfilled the whole "bringing balance to the force" thing more then the jedi may have ever expected it to.

as for ferinheight 9/11...

i prefer george as a movie producer over,... whatever it was that made F911 anyways.

*huff* *puff* well, got blue milk anyone? i need an oreo.

Kerry Skydancer wrote:heck, Lucas is just doing a Fahrenheit 911 on the poor guys.

How can Lucas paint Sith in a way unlike their actual character? He created them! Who better to know them?

The Sith are evil becuase they pursue power just to have power. We see Anakin starting out just wanting the
power to save Padme's life, but when she herself gets in the way of him obtaining even more power he tries to kill her.
He ends up being not above killing anyone he is told to so long as he gets more power.

Which brings me to an interesting observation: If Anakin had learned patience and continued in the Light side,
wouldn't he have eventually become a Jedi Master? The greatest Jedi mater ever? Instead he is a Sith apprentice
his whole life! Not to mention losing just about every one of his freinds by his own hands.

Sounds like Mr. Skywalker got majorly ripped off by Palpatine, if you ask me.