June 10

[LoneWolf23k]

Ok, I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the Jedi and Sith.

First of all, after a careful re-examination, I've come to the conclusion that the Jedi are not made to become unemotional psionic robots. Rather, they're encouraged to keep their emotions in check, especially emotions which would lead to selfish actions, and encouraged to act selflessly.

Basically, the Jedi are the sci-fi equivalent of an order of Warrior Monks, complete with vows of Poverty (except for the equipment needed to do their jobs) and Chastity, amongst other things. They live in a state of self-denial and focus on joining with the Force to better help others. And through this discipline, the Jedi become one with the Force, letting it inspire their actions.

Meanwhile, the Sith are all about Selfish desire and giving in to their base desires. The Sith philosophy is all about taking what you want, by hook or by crook, no matter the consequences. The Sith don't trust in the Force, they seek to bend it to their will...

...Or, to put it in a more familiar analogy: The Jedi rely on their Faith in a Higher Power, while the Sith believe they can make that Higher Power do as they wish.

Now, consider the case of Anakin Skywalker. Originally, Yoda didn't want to make the kid a Padawan because he sensed in him great fear. ...Yet Qui-Gon Jin decided to make the kid a Padawan anyways, then Obi-Wan took over the training.

Next we see him, Anakin's in his teens and is an excellent Jedi Apprentice; so good, he's not just confident, he's arrogant. He's convinced that his innate ability with the Force automatically makes him qualified to become a Master, even though he lacks the experience and the patience required for the job. He's Prideful. And this Pride makes him question the judgement of the Jedi Masters, leading him further into temptation..

...See, Anakin also loves Padme. Now, if he'd had some self-control, he could've just been satisfied with a platonic, "Courtly" form of love, without the need for her to recriprocate that love. But it wasn't enough for him to love her. He wanted her to love him back, and to show it. In the end, he secretly marries her, and they have children. ...So he's also acted out his Lusts, instead of keeping them in check.

And the secret wedding just makes it worst; if being with Padme was that important to him, he could've just left the Jedi order and married Padme (Count Dooku alone proves that Jedi can leave if they want.) Anakin wanted to be both Padme's Husband and be a Jedi. Because he thought he deserved it. And in the end, he failed at both.

Then, there's Palpatine's hand in the equation. ...Remember that he's been acting as Anakin's "mentor" ever since he became a Padawan, and has had about ten years to mindscrew the kid. He actively fanned the flames of Anakin's pride, making it difficult for Obi-Wan to teach the kid properly. Heck, he even makes Anakin his "personal representative on the Jedi Council", although the kid's nowhere near experienced enough to become a Master. ...This only ends up making Anakin Envious of the Masters, and more resentful of them.

Then, when Anakin is emotionally at his most vulnerable point, filled with fears and doubts, that's when Palpatine plays his Trump: "If you join the Sith, you can protect Padme's life." Of course, all of this is just part of Palpatine's game to twist Anakin into his servant; As it turns out, the biggest threat to Padme's life was Anakin the Darksider, who kills her in a fit of blind anger, then goes on to try and kill Obi-Wan, blaming him for everything.

Of course, killing people in fits Wrath is a common trait of Anakin's.. Remember when he slaughtered that entire Tusken Raider clan in Episode II? Killing the ones who tortured his mother was bad enough, but the whole damn clan? How many women and children do you think Anakin killed then? And did any of it bring his mother back? Nope.

So, basically.. Anakin fell to the Sins of Pride, Lust, Envy and Wrath, losing his faith in the will of the Force, and falling to the Dark Side. And oh, what a fall it was...

Mind you, Palpatine's no better.. ...The guy engineers events to destabilize the Galactic Republic and spark a Civil War, manipulating both sides to maneuver himself into a position of greater authority, until he ends up in total control of the Republic and turns it into an oppressive, totalitarian regime. The civil war alone means that Palpatine is personally responsible for billions of deaths as a result of the war, on both sides. He uses all of his apprentices as tools, manipulating them to further his schemes and disposing of them the moment their usefulness is at an end. And then, even with total control of the Empire, he channels money into the construction of the Death Star, the ultimate Weapon of Mass Destruction, for the sole purpose of cowering the Galaxy into total submission; as if his stormtrooper armies and fleets of star destroyer ships weren't enough...

So, sorry for the long post, but there's no way in Heck you can convince me the Sith are anything but the real villains here.. Between Palpatine, the man who sends billions to their deaths just so he can sit on the throne, and Vader, the guy who could've been a Jedi, had he not been a proud, wrathful and lustful jerk, I just don't see anyone with redeeming values in the lot.

Sure, Vader redeems himself in the end by giving his life to save his son, but it still doesn't change that prior to that event, he was a ruthless bastard.

[Mikhail Dragoslav]

The Sith explained: http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/sith.htm

A useful site.

[RHJunior]

Ok, I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the Jedi and Sith.

First of all, after a careful re-examination, I've come to the conclusion that the Jedi are not made to become unemotional psionic robots. Rather, they're encouraged to keep their emotions in check, especially emotions which would lead to selfish actions, and encouraged to act selflessly.

They are also denied any and all attachments outside the religious order. The order is Mother, the order is Father, the order is God. This is the sort of thinking and philosophy you see in power-obsessed cults.... not in orders of knights dedicated to good.

I would also like to point out that Yoda himself expressly stated to Anakin that the bonds of intimacy were a path to the Dark Side. He expressly declared love, marriage, and monogamous bonds to be sins in the Jedi Dogma.

Basically, the Jedi are the sci-fi equivalent of an order of Warrior Monks, complete with vows of Poverty (except for the equipment needed to do their jobs) and Chastity, amongst other things.

And on what grounds is this state automatically virtuous? Poverty is not a virtue, neither is Celibacy (they are denied marriage, not merely sex.) In fact, mandatory celibacy, in light of the command "be fruitful and multiply," could be regarded as contrary to divine and natural design.

They talk of being one with all nature and life, yet deny the most basic attributes of life to their coercively conscripted acolytes.

They live in a state of self-denial and focus on joining with the Force to better help others. And through this discipline, the Jedi become one with the Force, letting it inspire their actions.

Said force being a mindless energy field that perforates the universe. That makes as much sense as worshipping a Duracell battery.

Meanwhile, the Sith are all about Selfish desire and giving in to their base desires. The Sith philosophy is all about taking what you want, by hook or by crook, no matter the consequences. The Sith don't trust in the Force, they seek to bend it to their will...

No denying that the Sith are jackasses. The question, however, is the alleged shining purity of the Jedi themselves.

...Or, to put it in a more familiar analogy: The Jedi rely on their Faith in a Higher Power, while the Sith believe they can make that Higher Power do as they wish.

A Higher power with no identity, no personality, no mind of its own, and with a dualistic Dark Side. See Duracell analogy above.

Now, consider the case of Anakin Skywalker. Originally, Yoda didn't want to make the kid a Padawan because he sensed in him great fear. ...Yet Qui-Gon Jin decided to make the kid a Padawan anyways, then Obi-Wan took over the training.

Contrary to what Lucas may have learned from his Herbal Aromatherapist, fear and anger are not vices. A creature without fear or anger is an express candidate for a Darwin Award. And anger for a just cause is virtuous in itself.

Next we see him, Anakin's in his teens and is an excellent Jedi Apprentice; so good, he's not just confident, he's arrogant. He's convinced that his innate ability with the Force automatically makes him qualified to become a Master, even though he lacks the experience and the patience required for the job. He's Prideful. And this Pride makes him question the judgement of the Jedi Masters, leading him further into temptation..

It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that the Jedi have openly begun plotting to overthrow the duly elected leader of the Republic, and are trying to use Anakin as a spy, could it? Worst possible choice of a spy: one who has been practically adopted, and views the Senator as a surrogate father figure.
No denying Anakin was an arrogant and impatient prat, but it is not a vice to question the leadership. It is discretion.... especially when they start talking about conspiracy, insurrection, treason, and armed revolt against the government.

...See, Anakin also loves Padme. Now, if he'd had some self-control, he could've just been satisfied with a platonic, "Courtly" form of love, without the need for her to recriprocate that love. But it wasn't enough for him to love her. He wanted her to love him back, and to show it. In the end, he secretly marries her, and they have children. ...So he's also acted out his Lusts, instead of keeping them in check.

Raving horseshit. See above quote on the virtue of marriage. Furthermore, if they were "acting on their lusts" they would not have married, they would have just taken a spin in the space-hammock whenever opportunity presented itself.

Anakin wanted to be both Padme's Husband and be a Jedi. Because he thought he deserved it. And in the end, he failed at both.

Again, we note that he was literally raised with the prophecy hanging over his head. Did he remain a Jedi because he thought he deserved it--- or because he was indoctrinated to believe he was obligated to it? Consider what the Jedi tried to do to Palpatine, based solely on the word of one lone Jedi that he was a Sith.... they went in and tried to assassinate him in his own home. Do you think the Jedi counsel would have let "the chosen one" depart peacably? A little real world observation would incline one to acknowledge that "just leaving" a possessive religious order--- especially one so possessive that it forcibly recruits children in their infancy--- isn't that bloody easy.

Then, there's Palpatine's hand in the equation. ...Remember that he's been acting as Anakin's "mentor" ever since he became a Padawan, and has had about ten years to mindscrew the kid. He actively fanned the flames of Anakin's pride, making it difficult for Obi-Wan to teach the kid properly.

Again, not denying the Sith were jerkmonkeys. However, it's been noted that Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one, possibly the most powerful Force wielder in history--- even more than Yoda!--- trained his entire life in the ways of the Force and put through countless lightsaber duels, in the end got his ass kicked by his own son.... who had maybe, what, a couple weeks express training by a senile Yoda and two 'saber duels total under his belt?

"They're holding me back" looks a lot less like the petulant frustration of a child and more like an accurate assessment, in that light. Seems to me Yoda and the Jedi Bunch had a Slow Track--- for keeping the peons in line-- and a Fast Track--- for getting effective saber-swingers out there in a pinch to do their dirty work.

Then, when Anakin is emotionally at his most vulnerable point, filled with fears and doubts, that's when Palpatine plays his Trump: "If you join the Sith, you can protect Padme's life." Of course, all of this is just part of Palpatine's game to twist Anakin into his servant; As it turns out, the biggest threat to Padme's life was Anakin the Darksider, who kills her in a fit of blind anger

No, he didn't. He got so angry he choked and knocked her unsconscious, mind. It was Palpatine who told him he'd killed her--- lying, of course.
(Coincidentally, one of the weakest points in the whole story. You're basically telling me Anakin joined the Dark Side because they had a better medical plan?)

Once again, the point is not that the Sith were the "good guys--" obviously not--- but to question the presumption that the Jedi Way was really all that much better. They were a coercive religious cult that had sat in judgement of an entire galactic civilization for thousands of years, yet couldn't be convinced to stir their stumps against a planetary invasion force until it was nearly too late....turned a blind eye to entire sectors of the galaxy with an active slave trade... kidnapped kids from around the universe to be raised in their "serve till your death" religious order.... declared all ties outside their cult to be mortal sins.... thought nothing of exploiting wilfully braindamaged clones and near-stone-age Wookies as cannon fodder in a battle with walking mechanical cuisinarts.... crushed a "rebellion" that only wanted to freaking SECEDE from the crumbling Republic... and thought noting of sending an assassin team after the president of the council based on the word of a single Jedi that he was a Sith (rather than, we note, simply giving that bit of news to every media outlet in the galaxy.)
And their idea of chivalry consisted of slicing off someone's limbs, and then leaving them to slowly burn to death next to a pit of molten lava rather than deliver the coup-de-grace (Way to go, Obi Wan.)
... while delivering sermonettes on how "Only Sith dealt in absolutes."

The Sith were maniacs and despots, but at least they were honest maniacs and despots. the Jedi order was a bunch of self-righteous, self-serving, hypocritical, exploitative navel-gazers.

Screw 'em both, I'll be a smuggler. Kessel run in twelve parsecs, Beeyotch.

[/i]

[SolidusRaccoon]

Heh, Ralph made all the good points. Though, I would be a Bounty Hunter. Catch the target, get lots of bling.

[Mikhail Dragoslav]

RH brings up another point: the whole issue of seccession. Was that really a credible plot point to be used as the crisis that precipitated the downfall of the Republic? And was it really neccessary that they not only called the enemy forces Separatists, but their state was called the Confederacy of Independant Systems?

[LoneWolf23k]

Ok, let's resume the points, shall we?

#1: The Jedi order isn't a cult, it's a monastic order. We've had those since the Middle Ages, and they're perfectly fine. As for Poverty and Celibacy not being virtues...

Since When? Dude, the Church considers Greed and Lust to be Deadly Sins, and has for thousands of years. I know it doesn't look it sometimes, but ever since the Apostles, the Christian Ideal has been "share what you have with your neighbors and don't hog it all for yourself, and don't be tempted by the sins of the flesh". Monastic Orders are simply the most extensive exemples of such.

And unlike Cults, Monastic Orders are quite open to it's members leaving if they feel that they can't cut it. Same thing with the Priesthood or the Nunneries.

Frankly, the way I see it, the Jedi order was designed so as to go "Well, if you can't cut it as a Jedi, the door's right over there." ...Anakin was just too stubborn to take that door out.

As for the "abduct kids wholesale" bit: do you have any on-screen evidence of this? 'Cause I didn't see it in the movies, and those take precedent over everything else. Qui-Gon didn't abduct Anakin, he convinced his mother to let the kid go to Jedi Academy. I'm pretty sure that's standard recruitment policy. And, hey, the Jedi are widely respected Peace Keepers throughout the Republic. Having a kid who's become a Jedi might be as much a sign of pride as having a kid who's been accepted into MENSA.

And about the whole "No attachments whatsoever outside the Order" thing.. Episode II shows otherwise, as Obi-Wan has at least one good friend outside the Temple (his restaurant owner friend) and Anakin is allowed to spend time with Chancellor Palpatine (more on that later). So, extending from that, I don't see why Jedi wouldn't be allowed to go visit their family now and then, when not on missions. ...The reason why Anakin lost touch with his mother was that she lived in a backwater cesspool of a planet; the SW equivalent of Afghanistan or something.

#2: About the whole "Fear and Anger" thing. Righteous Anger is one thing, but Wrath is quite another. Jesus was the one who talked about forgiving one's enemies, and turning the other cheek. The whole point about "not giving in to anger" is about keeping it in check, and only using the amount of force necessary, and not an inch more. Remember, "Jedi use the Force only for Defense, never for Attack". in Episode I and II, we saw many times that the Jedi preferred using non-violent measures before violence, and non-lethal measures before killing.
This is because Force Users are potentially very dangerous beings: thus, the emphasis in teaching them not to go flying into a blind killing rage whenever you get pissed off.

#3: the whole "Assassination of a Lawfully Elected Figure" deal: Did you completly miss the part where it's revealed that Palpatine's been exploiting the civil war to stay in office longer then he's been supposed to, and that he's cimenting more and more control over the Senate?

More to the point, did you miss out the part where it's revealed that Palpatine is a Sith Lord? A Sith Lord ruling over the Republic is kind of like having Joseph Stalin in the White House: Not a Good Thing. Especially when it turns out the man is single-handedly responsible for the War going on. In short, the Jedi "Coup" on Palpatine was actually a Counter-Coup in response to Palpatine's own infiltration and corruption of the office of Chancellor.

#4: Anakin's Pride: Anakin's been a prideful git since Episode II, and it was revealed in that same movie that he spends a lot of time with Palpatine whenever he's on Coruscent. And from samples of conversations, Palpy's the one who keeps telling Anakin "You're the Chosen One! You don't have to take that crap from the Council! Go ahead and tell them where to stick it!" Can you get a worst possible influence? Don't blame the Jedi for trying to keep Anakin under control, blame Palpatine for telling the kid to go hog wild.

Oh, and the whole "fast-track/slow-track" thing is BS too. Way back in Empire Strikes Back, Yoda kept trying to make Luke slow down and learn it correctly. "But Luke, not ready are you", remember? Luke was as much of a hot-head as his father. The big difference, in the end, was that unlike his father, Luke kept his anger in check, and was motivated out of love, and a desire to bring out the good in his father.

#5: the whole "Sitting in Judgment" deal: Incorrect. The Jedi Order has always served the Republic to enforce it's laws, nothing more. The Jedi never interfered in politics, nor did they get involved in conflicts as more then peace-keepers, until the Clone Wars.

...And that was a conflict entirely instigated by Palpatine. Palpatine was both the man who passed laws to enforce more controls, and, as Darth Sidious, was the man who inspired the creation of the Secession movement in response to those controls... In short, Sidious, and Sidious alone, was the source of the whole damn Civil War.

#6: Anakin's "burning to death" thing: I see it more as Obi-Wan not having the heart to personally kill the man he saw as his brother. And in his shoes, I don't think I would've had the heart to finish him off myself. But neither would I have saved him, either. By that point, Anakin was little more then a seething ball of pure hatred. And that hatred alone is what allowed Anakin to survive long enough to be rescued.

Sorry Ralph, but this whole litany of "why the Jedi suck" and all, I just don't buy it. As far as I'm concerned, the Jedi were the Good Guys, and there's nothing you can say to convince me otherwise.

[Shyal_malkes]

The question, however, is the alleged shining purity of the Jedi themselves

like i said earlier, i think the jedi were not all that perfect and needed a little wakeup call. and anakin gave it to them. albeit he could have done so without so much,... um evil?

they went in and tried to assassinate him in his own home. Do you think the Jedi counsel would have let "the chosen one" depart peacably?

maybe the jedi were just getting paranoid and wanted things finished, that or they too turned to the dark side and decided to go out for some blood.

Again, not denying the Sith were jerkmonkeys. However, it's been noted that Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one, possibly the most powerful Force wielder in history--- even more than Yoda!--- trained his entire life in the ways of the Force and put through countless lightsaber duels, in the end got his ass kicked by his own son.... who had maybe, what, a couple weeks express training by a senile Yoda and two 'saber duels total under his belt?

"They're holding me back" looks a lot less like the petulant frustration of a child and more like an accurate assessment, in that light. Seems to me Yoda and the Jedi Bunch had a Slow Track--- for keeping the peons in line-- and a Fast Track--- for getting effective saber-swingers out there in a pinch to do their dirty work.

i think that vader was getting old and could have easily beaten luke in his younger years, look at how intense the saber duel was between anakin and obiwan when obiwan left him in the flames, and now look at it when obiwan did his little disappearing act on the death star.

The Sith were maniacs and despots, but at least they were honest maniacs and despots. the Jedi order was a bunch of self-righteous, self-serving, hypocritical, exploitative navel-gazers

well i agree except that in a number of circumstances palpatine was either twisting the truth or downright lying, though count dukoo and anakin and maybe even darth maul (all three sith apprentices) may have been honest.

Screw 'em both, I'll be a smuggler

considering what palpatine did to the jedi and later what anakin did to palpatine (i like to think that the "vader" in him died at that point) they did both get just that.

i'd rather be a grains trader in a large maurader corvet.

"may the, ah,... "lux" be with you"

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Hmm, this whole discussion has inspired me to actually sign up to comment.

First let's start with Yoda not wanting to Anakin to be trained. Let's say the events of TPM happen, only with Yoda prevailing on Obi-wan to not train Anakin, just ship him off with Padame. (assume some nameless pilot takes Annie's place as the 'luckest pilot over Naboo' so the rest of TPM plays out)

What would eventually happen to Anakin? My bet is that shortly after the funeral and Anakin being dumped by Obi-Wan (like five minutes, if not SECONDS) the Sith would come sniffing around, looking to train and convert him. The way he is spoken of, Anakin, in terms of the Force is a walking tacnuke. A bit rough while still a Padawan and vulnerable to weaker powered but better trained Sith, but still not something you'd let walk around without keeping an eye on. Frankly I was surprised that Qui-Gon never advanced the arguement that the Sith would be sniffing around such a powerful force user, and since that would require the Jedi to watch him anyway, the best way to do the watching would be with Anakin inside the Order. But by the same line of reasoning, Anakin's walking away (and the belief he is the Choosen one, the Jedi Messiah seems well spread among the Jedi Order, or at least the Council, if the Clone Wars mini-series is taken into account) seems less likely.

Next Anakin and Pride. AFAICT Anakin is not unique, or even unusual for having the Sin of Pride. It seems fairly common among the Jedi. One of the scenes I found most disturbing in the Prequels to my image of the Jedi as formed by the first three movies (IV-VI) was the part in AotC where Obi-Wan used the mind trick on a 'death stick' user. Frankly I don't think Force Lightning, or TK choking as the Jedi tricks closest to the Darkside, I think the humble Jedi Mind Trick is. Just a hand wave and a few words and you trapes through someone's mind making them do things that may not be in their best interests.

For example, TPM, Qui-Gon tries to get Watto to accept Republic Credits for replacement hyperdrive parts. Watto says they are no good on Tatoonie. We don't know why. Maybe Watto doesn't like the Republic. Maybe there is no branch of the Republic's banking system within practical reach for him. For all we know he was being literal, that on Tatoonie Republic Credits aren't worth the paper (or whatever) they are printed on, you'd spend that 20,000 just getting to the nearest bank that took them and back.

As for Anakin falling due to his emotions, were the emotions the fault, or the Jedi Order raising their Padawans as the emotional equavilents of 'The Bubble Boy' the cause? The Order isolates them from every emotion it can, every connection, leaving them without an emotional 'immune response' when Life punches into their sterile lives and infects them with emotional hurt. Rather than exposing them to emotion in a controled way, letting them grow emotionally it isolates and stunts them, leaving no defense when bad things happen to them emotionally.

Padame and Anakin. The drive to reproduce is ancient and strong. The Catholic Church does have vows of Chastity but A) don't demand you give it at age 4, and B) recongizes as a sacrifice, not as a natural act, it wouldn't be a sacrafice if it was easy. There is quite a bit of preparation and soul searching involved, not some abbott telling a novice 'purge all feelings from your heart, they will only hurt you' from on high.

I agree Anakin as the spy was a supremely BAD idea. Heinlien had a novel, Space Cadet. As part of the set up there was a Space Patrol (the main charater was a recently signed up cadet) that had control of Earth's Nuclear Arsenal, in continous orbit. Part of their job was a patrol to maintain these weapons, and the peace by using them against ANYONE that dared to wage war. If you were on such a Deterence patrol by your oath you were expected to pull the trigger, even if the nuke was going to land on your own country, or even home town.

When the main charater admits to a superior he isn't sure what he'd do if given the order to fire on his birth nation the superior tells him two things. One he'd drum the Cadet out on the spot if he didn't have doubts about doing so, someone who didn't would be to dangerous to trust with a nuke. And two the likely first order of the Captain of such a vessel in the unlikely case the Cadet's homenation had to be nuked by their ship would be to confine the Cadet to his quarters.

Anakin's 'They're holding me back", complaint. Again, this is shown better in Clone Wars. Anakin had the strength and skills for advancing before he finally did, it was his temperment that was questioned. I.E. he could quisanart a droid battalion with a dull light butterknife but the Jedi's weren't sure about his maturity and judgement to trust him without a Master supervising him. Think being trained to fly the best combat fighters in the world, but having to ask 'Mother May I' from ground control before flipping any switch or making any manuver. The Jedi apparently can train strong Force users in the skills faster and easier than they can impart the philosphy and 'rightthink' of the Order. Also with regard to Luke and Darth fighting in RotJ. One Vader might have been conflicted about fighting Luke with lethal intent, Luke sure was till Vader threatened to go after Liea to turn her. Then he seemed rather egdar to split Vader in two. Also Vader was working on four false limbs, he might not have been fighting at his best due to that.

I disagree with charaterizing the event in Palpatine's chambers as an assassination, at least at first. The Jedi came there to arrest the Chancelor for not giving up his emergency powers once the emergency had passed. Admittedly they were jumping the gun, at least in the assumption that Palpatine would refuse to give it up rather than waiting till he actually refused to step down. But it was an arrest, till Palpie pulled a lightsabre and cut down two of the Jedi. At which point Windu was ready to see Palpie be 'killed while resisting arrest'. Not an assissanation plot in that there was no prior intent till the lightsabre fight on the Jedi's part to kill Palpatine.

Not that the other side was any better IMHO. The Successionists, when we first see them, are blockading a planet that refused to sign a trade agreement with them! Frankly if someone holds a .45 to my head to make a deal I'll suspect that the terms are not in my favor, and all in his, even before I can read the deal.

Palpatine makes the Mother of All Reichstag Fires, courting Galatic Civil War, for his personal power. Yes it might benefit some that he transitioned the Republic to the Empire, but it was lust for power that made him do it, not any altrustic desires.

The Siths are pyschopaths, all the power of the Jedi, and even less restraint.

The Empire brought order. Also mass arrests, collective responsibilty for acts against them, and they had no problem with obliterating a planet of pacifists to demonstrate how bad ass they were. The Empire brought 'Peace and Order' alright, if it had to bring the Peace and Order of the grave to obtain it.

I do however find Anakin's method of fall believable. "Sell me your soul, and I'll save the love of your life." How many stores of Satan and/or temptation have that same theme?

[Carciofus]

Hi all, this is my first post here.

While I agree about the Jedi being very mislead at least, I have to nitpick about some of RHJunior's argumentations.

Poverty is not a virtue, neither is Celibacy (they are denied marriage, not merely sex.) In fact, mandatory celibacy, in light of the command "be fruitful and multiply," could be regarded as contrary to divine and natural design.

Now, I know it's quite OT, but it don't think this is what the Bible says.

I'm not a preacher or anything, but a quick browse gave me those references:

About Celibacy: Matthew 19:11, 1 Corinthians 7:28
About Poverty (as a vow): Matthew 19:16-30

So, it don't seems to me that according to the Bible people who make Poverty and Celibacy vows, like Ortodox and Catholic monks and nuns, are going against God's will. It's quite an "extreme" choice, sure, but a legitimate one nevertheless.

My 0.02 cents...

Now, returning to the Jedi: I think their main error in dealing with Anakin actually was of not being stern enough with him.
Forcing a undisciplined, extremely powerful padawan to deal with intricate galactic politics (not to mention sith lords) on daily basis is IMHO a *very* stupid thing to do.
They had to put him on a remote, uninhabitated planet with a powerful master and nothing else, not allowing him to leave until he either becomes a Jedi master or decides he does not want to be a Jedi.
I'm not a SW expert, but I think that the reason because Luke proved to be stronger (both phisically and spiritually) than Anakin was his more complete training with Joda.

[Shyal_malkes]

I think Lukas is just getting old.

i don't think so, nobody can kill a jedi

I wish that were true

as soon as i heard this i knew either Qui gon or someone near to him was gonna die, how did i know this?

cause it's one of the oldest tricks in the book!!!

i've seen it a million times. my biggest beef with the latest three episodes is that lukas has been using some of the most easily recognizable character types (jar jar binks (who nobody seems to like anyway)) and some of the most overused plot devices known to pre-hollywood days!

cookie anyone?

[RHJunior]

Matthew 19:11

Was neither a command nore a praising of the people who abandoned all secular concerns in pursuit of spiritual things, but an observation.

It is also of note that, by God's own law, eunuchs were forbidden in the Temple itself.... So what Christ was saying here isn't as straightforward or immediately clear as some would think.

1 Corinthians 7:28

Refers to the fact that the church was in a time of persecution and peril. Marrying at a time when you could end up tossed in a pit of lions was not, shall we say, forward thinking.



Matthew 19:16-30

Does NOT refer to the virtue of poverty, OR to the necessity of poverty for the entrance to Heaven!

Jesus knew the heart of the rich young man, that he loved his riches more than he even wanted heaven. I do not doubt that, had the young man agreed to do as told--- just as Abraham had agreed to sacrifice his son--- Jesus' next words would have been "thy faith is sufficient for me." But the young man, presented with a choice between his material wealth and the riches of heaven, chose his money.

Now, the next part I only have the word of the people running the Passion Play I attended. So caveat emptor.....
The "Camel through a needle's eye" passage is believed to refer to a particular feature of the main gate into Jerusalem--- alongside the large main gateway was a small, one-man-sized gateway commonly referred to as "the needle's eye." The only way a camel would have fit through it was if it allowed all its burdens to be removed.... and it got down on its knees.
Allegory? Symbolism? A comical mental image? Perhaps all three.

[StrangeWulf13]

Hey, who knows? Maybe it was the gate you mentioned. Or maybe Jesus was just trying to get a laugh out of the disciples.

As one Christian author/comedian, Ken Davis, puts it, "That'd be one strung out camel!"

I have to agree.

[Shyal_malkes]

star wars, then religion (course when you're talking about hokey religions and ancient weapons i guess religion isn't too far from it), probably politics next and then we may get to talk about something fun...

[LoneWolf23k]

Nonetheless, poverty (or at least not pursuing wealth) and chastity (or at least not pursuing sex all the time) have been held as christian virtues for thousands of years.

Now, while there's technically nothing wrong with being both Rich and Christian, being more concerned with material wealth over the welfare of your fellow man is considered to be wrong.

Likewise with chastity and sex; Ralph himself has said many times that sex should be kept within the bounds of lawful marriage, right? Well, total chastity is just a progression of that thought: "sex is a distraction from the contemplation of god, so I'll abstain from it and focus on helping my fellow man instead."

Now, it seems to me as if there's a big misconception here that assumes that monastic orders (from which the Jedi order seem to be based on) are identitcal to actual cults like the Heaven's Gate group. This is incorrect. While true monastic orders follow the Rule of St Benedict of chastity, poverty and obediance, this is an entirely volontary commitment, and unlike cults, those who can't cut it in a monastery are encouraged to leave.

...Actually, that reminds me of a joke...

A man in the Middle Ages became fed up with humanity and decided to spend the rest of his life in a monastery. The abbot warned him that he would have to take a vow of silence and live the rest of his life as a scribe. The man replied, "No problem. I'm sick of talking."

Ten years went by, and the abbot called for the man. He told him that he was model monk and perfect scribe, and they were very happy with him. As per tradition he was allowed say two words. So he nodded and said, "Cold Food." The abbot sent him on his way.

Ten years later, he was brought before the abbot again and told how pleased they were with his performance, and he was again allowed two more words. The man said, "Hard Bed," and was sent back to work.

Another ten years went by and again the abbot sent for the man, telling him he was the best monk they had ever had, and that he was allowed another two words. The man nodded and said, "I quit."

Abbot replied in a disgusted tone, "Doesn't surprise me. You've done nothing but complain since you got here."

[CasVeg]

Extremes are dangerous and should be avoided. Perfect neutrality is also an extreme.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Shyal_malkes]

according to what i know about evololution (which isn't much). when something changes genetically or behaviorally, it takes generations if not eons to do it.

wonderfull thing about intelligence is the ability to change one's behavior in a matter of seconds. (sheesh it takes only long enough to make the decision that turns a perfect soldier into a heartless traitor and murderer of his own fellow soldiers)

it seems then that an extreem would make it harder to adapt to things as quickly and thus make it harder to survive with it.

[SirBob]

An important point to keep in mind is that Lucas derived the morality presented in "Star Wars" from the Taoist ethos. In Tao, the universe consists is made up of opposing forces: creation and destruction, emotion and reason, passion and serenity, even male and female. Good and evil have no place in this duality - you won't find "good" on one side of the scale and "evil" on the other. However, this is not to say that good and evil do not exist in this ethos; rather, they are conditions, not tangible forces. "Good" is the natural state of the universe, existing when and where a state of harmony is acheived, and no one force is overwhelmed by its opposite. "Evil", conversely, is an imbalance, an aberration, a diseased condition that results when a particular force overwhelms its natural counterbalance.

This agrees rather well with how Lucas has described the Dark Side in recent interviews; he explicitly states that the Dark Side is an aberration, and not a natural opposition to the "Light Side" (in fact, the term "Light Side" never appears in the movies).

It should be tolerably obvious what the Dark Side's malfunction is: the Sith are ruled by their passions at the expense of serenity, rationality - even sanity. Thus: the Sith are evil. However, it may be sightly less obvious that the Republic-era Jedi Order is also unbalanced; not satisfied with understanding and controlling their passions, they seek to repress, deny, and ultimately elimanate them entirely. In so doing, they become disconnected from humanity, casually and unknowingly cruel; their greatest champion cannot find the compassion even to allow his "brother" a merciful death. Thus: the Republic-Era Jedi are also evil.

(Interestingly enough, Taoist morality is not entirely incompatible with Christian morality. It's no accident that every single one of the Christian deadly sins is described in terms of excess or apathy.)

[RHJunior]

Those virtues are not "Christian," they are CATHOLIC.

And as a Baptist, and along with the Protestant denominations, I vehemently refute the notion that something becomes a Christian Virtue simply because an old Italian in a goofy hat stood up and proclaimed it so.

Poverty is not a virtue, is is a trial suffered by the misfortunate. Celibacy is not a virtue: it is better to marry than to burn, and God proclaimed "it is not good that Man is alone" countless ages before the first catholic ever walked the surface of the earth.

[Carciofus]

I don't want to start a "denomination war", as they have been said to be even worse than browser wars

So, I'll ignore the "Old Italian in a goofy hat" bit: frankly, it could quickly become a rather unpleasant discussion, and moreover I do not feel like I'm knowledgeable enough to start a theological debate over this.

had the young man agreed to do as told--- just as Abraham had agreed to sacrifice his son--- Jesus' next words would have been "thy faith is sufficient for me."

Well, I don't know what He would have said.
But Jesus ordered some people (most notably the Apostles: for example, Mark 6:7-10) to leave everything and follow Him, so I suppose He _could_ have accepted the joung man's sacrifice.

Your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 7:28 and Matthew 19:16-30 is, I think, consistent; however, I have troble understanding what you say about Matthew 19:11.

Of course it is not a command nor a praising. Allow me to quote (from the New International Version):

10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

As I understand it, here Jesus said that some people can renounce marriage in order to better serve Him, and that for _these_ people this decision is legitimate.

However, for most people (myself probably included) renouncing marriage would be an extremely stupid thing to do, as they are better suited to serve God through rightful marriage.
Indeed, "it is better to marry than to burn", and if someone feels like "burning" (i.e. if he finds it hard to resist to his sexual desires) he should not think about celibacy at all.

IMHO, marriage and celibacy are both "virtues" (in Catholic theology, this term has a more restricted meaning, as it refers to the three Thelogal Virtues and to the four Cardinal Virtues) if done with good will, but they both can become something of a curse elsewhere.

Poverty is not a virtue; but being able to happily renounce to material possessions when it is necessary certainly is.
Most of the monks who made vow of poverty do not live particularly low-budget lives, but as they get everyting they need from the Church they do not "own" anything, and are expected not to hold grudges if for some reason they don't get what they think they need.

I have mixed feelings about continuing this discussion.
While I love speaking about religions, I understand it could bug someone, and I also feel a little guilty of thread hijacking, so please let me know if it is correct to continue this line of discussion.

[LoneWolf23k]

I have mixed feelings about continuing this discussion.
While I love speaking about religions, I understand it could bug someone, and I also feel a little guilty of thread hijacking, so please let me know if it is correct to continue this line of discussion.

Yeah, I see what you mean. This conversation has drifted way off-topic, from Jedi to Christian Denominations..

And as for the whole "Catholic vs Protestant" debate, let me just quote Bart Simpson on this one: "IT'S ALL CHRISTIANITY, PEOPLE!"