Religion and Morality

[Calbeck]

But in the end, no amount of arguing can change a person's mind. The so-called "Christians" on this forum aren't doing their job. God says to preach the Good News everywhere at all times. All I hear is a bunch of wishy-washy ideas that are <i>not</i> of God.

Okay, here I gotta take issue with ya.

First, God said nothing about preaching the Gospel everywhere, all the time. Paul did. For all that Paul was, he was not God, and his word is not God's even if it shows up in the same book that God's word happens to be in. It may be good advice, but I'm not going to hell for not following it.

Second, it's your opinion that the ideas here, wishy-washy or otherwise, are not of God. That's for God to say, not you or me. And personally I would love to be able to sit down with God over coffee and donuts and talk with Him directly about all this. -:)

Let me make this clear: I'm a Jesus Freak, and I will shout the Gospel from the rooftops if I have to.

Do as you will, but remember that man is convinced by reason and love, not decibel.

Maybe this isn't the place to do this, but I encourage all those reading to repent of their sins and ask Jesus to come into their hearts right now.

Been there, done that, got the salvation. -;)

By the way, Calbeck, maybe we did screw up the Bible. But if that's so, than why do our current translations match the Dead Sea Scrolls so well?

They don't. Our current translations don't even match each other --- grab a King James, New American, and/or any other version of the Bible you care to, and compare. Differences abound.

Then there's the Dead Sea Scrolls, which have no Old Testament --- they were a contemporary record of life during the time of Christ, and what makes them interesting is that in terms of GENERALITIES --- not specifics --- they describe a number of the events listed in the New Testament. It is important to note here that the Dead Sea Scrolls were NOT created by followers of Christ, but by a Jewish sect that took an interest in Christ and his multitudes as a matter of curiosity.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, in short, are not a mirror image, or even a close approximation, of the Gospel According to John or any of the other apostles. It's simply an historical confirmation that there WAS a Christ, he DID run around with a lot of people, and there WERE many miracles ascribed to him (though the people who wrote the Scrolls didn't see any in person).

Even if the council of Nicea had no right to mess with God's Word, He has used that "screwed-up" version to save countless souls.

How? God didn't edit, publish, or distribute any of the Bibles. He has had no interaction with the Book since before it was even collated. Mankind, not God, has used the Bible both to save souls and damn them. It has been our will, not God's, that guided our use of His Word --- not to mention all the extra words we added, and whatever of His that we clipped out when we found it inconvenient.

How can you suggest it's not the way it's supposed to be?

How can you suggest there's a way it's supposed to be in the first place?

After all, there are no coincidences when it comes to God.

Nor is God required to do anything to match our ideals of Him. If we screw up the Bible, God is not required to stop us, edit what we write, or even "inspire" us to write something other than what we wish to write. He has no obligation to appear in a head of fire and thunder to correct Tammy Fay Bakker or Desmond Tutu of the error of their ways.

That is what free will is about --- there can be no faith without it.

I'm okay now; my blood pressure's back to normal. And the only one I'll answer to is either God or Ralph, so don't anyone try to tell me to shut up. I've been silent for too long anyway.

No problem, I'm a Neo-Protestant. Faith comes from challenging ideas. -:)

[Calbeck]

But in the end, no amount of arguing can change a person's mind. The so-called "Christians" on this forum aren't doing their job. God says to preach the Good News everywhere at all times. All I hear is a bunch of wishy-washy ideas that are <i>not</i> of God.

Okay, here I gotta take issue with ya.

First, God said nothing about preaching the Gospel everywhere, all the time. Paul did. For all that Paul was, he was not God, and his word is not God's even if it shows up in the same book that God's word happens to be in. It may be good advice, but I'm not going to hell for not following it.

Second, it's your opinion that the ideas here, wishy-washy or otherwise, are not of God. That's for God to say, not you or me. And personally I would love to be able to sit down with God over coffee and donuts and talk with Him directly about all this. -:)

Let me make this clear: I'm a Jesus Freak, and I will shout the Gospel from the rooftops if I have to.

Do as you will, but remember that man is convinced by reason and love, not decibel.

Maybe this isn't the place to do this, but I encourage all those reading to repent of their sins and ask Jesus to come into their hearts right now.

Been there, done that, got the salvation. -;)

By the way, Calbeck, maybe we did screw up the Bible. But if that's so, than why do our current translations match the Dead Sea Scrolls so well?

They don't. Our current translations don't even match each other --- grab a King James, New American, and/or any other version of the Bible you care to, and compare. Differences abound.

Then there's the Dead Sea Scrolls, which have no Old Testament --- they were a contemporary record of life during the time of Christ, and what makes them interesting is that in terms of GENERALITIES --- not specifics --- they describe a number of the events listed in the New Testament. It is important to note here that the Dead Sea Scrolls were NOT created by followers of Christ, but by a Jewish sect that took an interest in Christ and his multitudes as a matter of curiosity.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, in short, are not a mirror image, or even a close approximation, of the Gospel According to John or any of the other apostles. It's simply an historical confirmation that there WAS a Christ, he DID run around with a lot of people, and there WERE many miracles ascribed to him (though the people who wrote the Scrolls didn't see any in person).

Even if the council of Nicea had no right to mess with God's Word, He has used that "screwed-up" version to save countless souls.

How? God didn't edit, publish, or distribute any of the Bibles. He has had no interaction with the Book since before it was even collated. Mankind, not God, has used the Bible both to save souls and damn them. It has been our will, not God's, that guided our use of His Word --- not to mention all the extra words we added, and whatever of His that we clipped out when we found it inconvenient.

How can you suggest it's not the way it's supposed to be?

How can you suggest there's a way it's supposed to be in the first place?

After all, there are no coincidences when it comes to God.

Nor is God required to do anything to match our ideals of Him. If we screw up the Bible, God is not required to stop us, edit what we write, or even "inspire" us to write something other than what we wish to write. He has no obligation to appear in a head of fire and thunder to correct Tammy Fay Bakker or Desmond Tutu of the error of their ways.

That is what free will is about --- there can be no faith without it.

I'm okay now; my blood pressure's back to normal. And the only one I'll answer to is either God or Ralph, so don't anyone try to tell me to shut up. I've been silent for too long anyway.

No problem, I'm a Neo-Protestant. Faith comes from challenging ideas. -:)

[Calbeck]

But in the end, no amount of arguing can change a person's mind. The so-called "Christians" on this forum aren't doing their job. God says to preach the Good News everywhere at all times. All I hear is a bunch of wishy-washy ideas that are <i>not</i> of God.

Okay, here I gotta take issue with ya.

First, God said nothing about preaching the Gospel everywhere, all the time. Paul did. For all that Paul was, he was not God, and his word is not God's even if it shows up in the same book that God's word happens to be in. It may be good advice, but I'm not going to hell for not following it.

Second, it's your opinion that the ideas here, wishy-washy or otherwise, are not of God. That's for God to say, not you or me. And personally I would love to be able to sit down with God over coffee and donuts and talk with Him directly about all this. -:)

Let me make this clear: I'm a Jesus Freak, and I will shout the Gospel from the rooftops if I have to.

Do as you will, but remember that man is convinced by reason and love, not decibel.

Maybe this isn't the place to do this, but I encourage all those reading to repent of their sins and ask Jesus to come into their hearts right now.

Been there, done that, got the salvation. -;)

By the way, Calbeck, maybe we did screw up the Bible. But if that's so, than why do our current translations match the Dead Sea Scrolls so well?

They don't. Our current translations don't even match each other --- grab a King James, New American, and/or any other version of the Bible you care to, and compare. Differences abound.

Then there's the Dead Sea Scrolls, which have no Old Testament --- they were a contemporary record of life during the time of Christ, and what makes them interesting is that in terms of GENERALITIES --- not specifics --- they describe a number of the events listed in the New Testament. It is important to note here that the Dead Sea Scrolls were NOT created by followers of Christ, but by a Jewish sect that took an interest in Christ and his multitudes as a matter of curiosity.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, in short, are not a mirror image, or even a close approximation, of the Gospel According to John or any of the other apostles. It's simply an historical confirmation that there WAS a Christ, he DID run around with a lot of people, and there WERE many miracles ascribed to him (though the people who wrote the Scrolls didn't see any in person).

Even if the council of Nicea had no right to mess with God's Word, He has used that "screwed-up" version to save countless souls.

How? God didn't edit, publish, or distribute any of the Bibles. He has had no interaction with the Book since before it was even collated. Mankind, not God, has used the Bible both to save souls and damn them. It has been our will, not God's, that guided our use of His Word --- not to mention all the extra words we added, and whatever of His that we clipped out when we found it inconvenient.

How can you suggest it's not the way it's supposed to be?

How can you suggest there's a way it's supposed to be in the first place?

After all, there are no coincidences when it comes to God.

Nor is God required to do anything to match our ideals of Him. If we screw up the Bible, God is not required to stop us, edit what we write, or even "inspire" us to write something other than what we wish to write. He has no obligation to appear in a head of fire and thunder to correct Tammy Fay Bakker or Desmond Tutu of the error of their ways.

That is what free will is about --- there can be no faith without it.

I'm okay now; my blood pressure's back to normal. And the only one I'll answer to is either God or Ralph, so don't anyone try to tell me to shut up. I've been silent for too long anyway.

No problem, I'm a Neo-Protestant. Faith comes from challenging ideas. -:)

[ZOMBIE USER 12293]

And here I thought everone had given up on this line...

Okay, no recriminations (though I have just about bit my tongue off fighting the urge), but I think we have gone so far off topic here that we are missing what the original point of this discourse was: Morality and Religion: Are they inseperable or can one be moral without following the tenants of a particular faith? I say yes, a person can be moral without needing to believe in a God... but I'm a biased atheist who spent alot of time studying philosophy and religion, so I'm not sure I'm being very objective with this.