Draft comming again?

Postby Maxgoof on Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:32 am

This is not the thinking of "The Democrats", this is the thinking of one Charles Rangal. Democrats have shot this down again, since it will backfire on them.

Here's Mister Rangal's thought process:

Presently, with an all-volunteer army, there is no incentive not to go to war.

With a draft, you will have plenty of people in the military who do not want to be there. There will be almost no incentive to go to war, under any circumstances.

Charles Rangal wants the draft because it will keep us from going to war.

That simple.
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Postby Nikas_Zekeval on Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:13 pm

The thing is, the draft is 180 degrees off the stated goal of stopping unpopular wars. Right now with an all volunteer force if the war is unpopular, people stop volunteering. They don't re-enlist, they avoid military recruitment centers like the plauge, and so on. None of which is happening right now. Stop loss orders and calling up reserves can slow things (Kosovo, under Clinton the USAF had to stop processing retirements of their pilots to keep the planes flying), but ultimately you can't stop it.

With a draft, well if the war is unpopular, TOO BAD! You have to join, it's the LAW.
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Postby ChronicMisadventures on Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:18 pm

Nikas_Zekeval wrote:The thing is, the draft is 180 degrees off the stated goal of stopping unpopular wars.

With a draft, well if the war is unpopular, TOO BAD! You have to join, it's the LAW.


Well that's Rangel's "logic" (I'm using the term as loosely as possible here). His thought process is "if people are forced to join, it'll be even more unpopular, thus the public will force an end to it. Right now the war doesn't actually affect most of the public, therefor they don't protest and let it continue".

He's basically trying to recreate the anti-war protests of the 60s under the belief that they're what ended the Vietnam war. Rangel and his buddies would dearly love another Vietnam so they could harp on it for the next few decades in attacks on the military. A few months ago Kofi Annan made some comment in an interview along the lines of "It seems as though America needs to have a failed war every few decades."
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Postby ChronicMisadventures on Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:53 pm

....and for the latest on Rangel: He's now apparently channelling John Kerry.

Said by Rangle in an interview with Chris Wallace on Fox News:

I want to make it abundantly clear: if there’s anyone who believes that these youngsters want to fight, as the Pentagon and some generals have said, you can just forget about it. No young, bright individual wants to fight just because of a bonus and just because of educational benefits. And most all of them come from communities of very, very high unemployment. If a young fella has an option of having a decent career or joining the army to fight in Iraq, you can bet your life that he would not be in Iraq.


American Legion is now demanding an appology.
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Postby Calbeck on Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:13 pm

maxgoof wrote:Charles Rangal wants the draft because it will keep us from going to war.


That's stupid. The entire point of the draft is to provide extra manpower during any conflict in which volunteerism does not suffice. It has never been used under any other circumstances, and it has certainly never acted as a deterrent to war.

ChronicMisadventures wrote:He's basically trying to recreate the anti-war protests of the 60s under the belief that they're what ended the Vietnam war. Rangel and his buddies would dearly love another Vietnam so they could harp on it for the next few decades in attacks on the military. A few months ago Kofi Annan made some comment in an interview along the lines of "It seems as though America needs to have a failed war every few decades."


Complete idiocy on both counts. America didn't "fail" in Vietnam. We got exactly what we wanted; a peace treaty from the North that recognized the sovereignty of the South. We WON the Vietnam War, despite the protests. This was November 1973.

What happened AFTER is a different story altogether. During the last stages of postwar pullout, when the US was in no position to counterattack, the North broke the peace treaty and re-invaded in 1975, starting an entirely new war. When President Ford asked Congress to allow US forces to defend our South Vietnamese ally, the Democrats who controlled it refused.

So we didn't "lose" the Second Vietnamese Civil War either; we simply chose not to be involved...which was a stupid decision, according to General Giap, who finally admitted a few years ago North Vietnam would have collapsed within a year of fighting due to a near-total lack of manpower. We'd literally bled them to death, and the 1975 attack was a last-ditch effort which actually relied on the poisonous atmosphere of US politics to prevent the US from intervening a second time.
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Postby NydaLynn on Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:59 pm

ChronicMisadventures wrote:....and for the latest on Rangel: He's now apparently channelling John Kerry.

Said by Rangle in an interview with Chris Wallace on Fox News:

I want to make it abundantly clear: if there’s anyone who believes that these youngsters want to fight, as the Pentagon and some generals have said, you can just forget about it. No young, bright individual wants to fight just because of a bonus and just because of educational benefits. And most all of them come from communities of very, very high unemployment. If a young fella has an option of having a decent career or joining the army to fight in Iraq, you can bet your life that he would not be in Iraq.


American Legion is now demanding an appology.


Bwahaha. I do not think he will get very far by offending those in the military. My brother would love to join. He's even tried. No branch will take him. No... not even the national guard. Bad case of asthma. HE even got a letter stating he'd be breaking the law if he ever joined, even if the asthma cleared up. All of his highschool friends are in Iraq or have served, or are in boot camp, and I can attest they are not poor, rural kids. No, they didn't have full ride to Yale lined up thanks to thier parents either. I'd say they were average middle class and all white.

Why would they join? JROTC program in school could be one reason. That progam is working out just fine, considering several of those boys are on thier second or third tour of Iraq. As a closing interesting note... did I mention the military readily welcomed all the white youth who volunteered and turned away the one brown skinned mutt based on his health? Bah... I bet Rangle has never been in the military. :P
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Postby ChronicMisadventures on Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:40 pm

NydaLynn wrote:Why would they join? JROTC program in school could be one reason. That progam is working out just fine, considering several of those boys are on thier second or third tour of Iraq.


Btw, the liberals out in...think it was San Francisco...have axed the JROTC program from high schools there, claiming the military's 'don't ask, don't tell' policy as a reason.

NydaLynn wrote:Bah... I bet Rangle has never been in the military. :P


Actually, he has, he was in the infantry back in the Korean War. ...as such he thinks it gives him complete authority to talk on behalf of all soldiers and that they'll all agree with his views. ....sorta like Kerry, eh? ;)
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Postby Earl McClaw on Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:38 pm

NydaLynn wrote:My brother would love to join [the military]. He's even tried. No branch will take him. No... not even the national guard. Bad case of asthma. He even got a letter stating he'd be breaking the law if he ever joined, even if the asthma cleared up.

So suggest he pursue a career placing him in a civilian supporting role. There should be plenty to chose from where asthma is nearly irrelivant, and it keeps him near what he apparently loves.

Also point him in the direction of a Theodore Roosevelt biography. IIRC he overcame childhood weaknesses to become a rubust, active adult - including military service!
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Postby NydaLynn on Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:55 pm

Earl McClaw wrote:
NydaLynn wrote:My brother would love to join [the military]. He's even tried. No branch will take him. No... not even the national guard. Bad case of asthma. He even got a letter stating he'd be breaking the law if he ever joined, even if the asthma cleared up.

So suggest he pursue a career placing him in a civilian supporting role. There should be plenty to chose from where asthma is nearly irrelivant, and it keeps him near what he apparently loves.

Also point him in the direction of a Theodore Roosevelt biography. IIRC he overcame childhood weaknesses to become a rubust, active adult - including military service!


Yeah, I really hope he finds something. He's really dissapointed he can't be in combat like his buddies. Kind of in limbo right now since he can't afford college at the moment either. Bet he'll figure something out. And I will certianly look up the biography.
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Postby NydaLynn on Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:58 pm

ChronicMisadventures wrote:
NydaLynn wrote:Why would they join? JROTC program in school could be one reason. That progam is working out just fine, considering several of those boys are on thier second or third tour of Iraq.


Btw, the liberals out in...think it was San Francisco...have axed the JROTC program from high schools there, claiming the military's 'don't ask, don't tell' policy as a reason.



*blink blink* Really? Sounds kind of odd to me. It's a school program that is optional for students to join. It's not like they require everyone to sign up.


NydaLynn wrote:Bah... I bet Rangle has never been in the military. :P


Actually, he has, he was in the infantry back in the Korean War. ...as such he thinks it gives him complete authority to talk on behalf of all soldiers and that they'll all agree with his views. ....sorta like Kerry, eh? ;)[/quote]

Hee, I would have lost the bet then! I suppose that's why an earlier post mentioned him 'channeling John Kerry'? ;)
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Postby Frigidmagi on Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:14 pm

As an former Marine Combat Engineer and current college student I got to step in.

One:

The Draft historically has never been a "leveler" that forces the upper class to fight. It has historically been a method for that same upper class to force the lower class to do the fighting for it. (Peasent solders ring any bells?) Even during Vietnam upper class kids were able to avoid the draft. Jr for example didn't go but got into the Air National Guard. The blunt fact is that family influence very likely helped.

Two:

A draft would not make unpopular wars harder, it would make them easier. We were in Vietnam with a draft army, fighting an unpopular war... for over a decade. We've been in Iraq what? 3 years plus?

Three:

I can't think of a single thing short of disbanding us and turning the flag into a white bedsheet that would be worse for the Marine Corps and America as a whole then resorting to a universal draft at this point and time. We don't want it and we don't need it.

Four:

This is the second time he's[pushed this bill. Last time he didn't even vote for it. How about some reporter call him on that? Isn't that their job after all? To bring facts to light and rub the powerful's noses in it?
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Postby BoKiana on Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:40 am

frigidmagi wrote:Four:

This is the second time he's[pushed this bill. Last time he didn't even vote for it. How about some reporter call him on that? Isn't that their job after all? To bring facts to light and rub the powerful's noses in it?


Not on this planet friend.

Certain people will always get a free ride from the mainstream media. This is why our good friend, Ted Kennedy got only a minor slap on the wrist for what he's done and the media quickly moved on to other things.
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Postby Celidah the Bardess on Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:39 pm

I want to make it abundantly clear: if there’s anyone who believes that these youngsters want to fight, as the Pentagon and some generals have said, you can just forget about it. No young, bright individual wants to fight just because of a bonus and just because of educational benefits. And most all of them come from communities of very, very high unemployment. If a young fella has an option of having a decent career or joining the army to fight in Iraq, you can bet your life that he would not be in Iraq.


Yeeah, I'm thinking my fiance, who holds a BA in International Studies and is now a commissioned Army 2LT, and all his buddies who also hold BAs and commissions, would be verrry surprised to hear that.
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Postby StrangeWulf13 on Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:28 pm

One of the dangers of posting on this forum is that should you comment on any war, past or present, you're likely to gain the attention of the veterans and real soldiers here (or their relatives in the latter case).

:twisted: And should your opinion differ from theirs, they will tell you just how much crow you'll have to eat...
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Postby Frigidmagi on Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:08 pm

I want to make it abundantly clear: if there’s anyone who believes that these youngsters want to fight, as the Pentagon and some generals have said, you can just forget about it. No young, bright individual wants to fight just because of a bonus and just because of educational benefits. And most all of them come from communities of very, very high unemployment. If a young fella has an option of having a decent career or joining the army to fight in Iraq, you can bet your life that he would not be in Iraq.


WTF? I was in the invasion and I still have platoon mates in. They would be beyond shocked to hear this tripe.
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Postby Kerry Skydancer on Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:04 pm

When they have listened, they generally -have- been shocked. There's a reason that the military has been voting at better than 80% for the Republicans, even when they've been less than stellar performers... even at their worst, the Republicans understand the military. The current crop of Dems is utterly clueless.

I suspect that the only reason it isn't 100% is that some folks vote without paying attention to political news....
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Postby MikeVanPelt on Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:20 pm

The thing that gets me is... Kerry, at least, quickly figured out that what he said about the troops was a Very Bad Move, and tried to claim he didn't really mean what he really meant when he said it.

Then Charlie Rangle and a whole bunch of other Democrats start affirming the insulting opinion that Kerry frantically backed away from.

Weird. Do the Democrats plan to just write off the military vote entirely?
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Postby Celidah the Bardess on Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:46 pm

MikeVanPelt wrote:The thing that gets me is... Kerry, at least, quickly figured out that what he said about the troops was a Very Bad Move, and tried to claim he didn't really mean what he really meant when he said it.

Then Charlie Rangle and a whole bunch of other Democrats start affirming the insulting opinion that Kerry frantically backed away from.

Weird. Do the Democrats plan to just write off the military vote entirely?


Yanno, the funny thing about that is, I read the text of Kerry's original delivery, and then read what he claimed the joke was supposed to be, and didn't see much difference between the two.

I doubt the joke would have gone over well even if *ahem ahem* delivered correctly.

And I'm with you, Mike. I don't get why the Dems insist on insulting such a large voter bloc.
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Postby Luna_Northcat on Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:57 am

For all that the Democrats accuse the Bush administration of "being out of touch", they don't exactly demonstrate a sterling grasp of the world, or of the mindsets of their constituents, themselves. Rangel and it seems a few of the other prominent Democrats are just idiots who are incredibly out of touch with how normal people think.
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Postby Deckard Canine on Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:18 am

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01794.html

In case you can't access the article, I'll tell you: Gene Weingarten says that Kerry's biggest mistake therein was not in insulting the military but in thinking he knew how to tell a joke. He gives an example:

Actual Jerry Seinfeld joke-- The problem with mall garages is that everything looks the same. They try to differentiate between levels: different colors, different numbers, different letters. What they need to do is name the levels like, "Your Mother's a Whore." You would remember that. You would go: "No, we're not. We're in 'My Father's an Abusive Alcoholic.'"

The same Jerry Seinfeld joke, as would be told by John Kerry-- The problem with mall garages is that your mother's a whore.
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