SCOTUS steps in it

[Mike Fang]

now how are children supposed to take it, that they're greateful for their mom not aborting them, or that mom is still a virgin even? i can see it now being taught in kindergarden or even head start or even in the stroller 'arn't you glad mom choose to have you?' Does a parent ever expect to controll that child when he/she's a teenager telling them that all of his/her life?

*gives t.s.a.o a hard look* Oh, so what, you're saying they'd be better off dead? Not even worth trying to give them a chance to overcome those particular difficulties, just snuff them now so we don't have to bother with it? That's a pretty cold-blooded thing to insinuate.

[T.s.a.o]

now how are children supposed to take it, that they're greateful for their mom not aborting them, or that mom is still a virgin even? i can see it now being taught in kindergarden or even head start or even in the stroller 'arn't you glad mom choose to have you?' Does a parent ever expect to controll that child when he/she's a teenager telling them that all of his/her life?

*gives t.s.a.o a hard look* Oh, so what, you're saying they'd be better off dead? Not even worth trying to give them a chance to overcome those particular difficulties, just snuff them now so we don't have to bother with it? That's a pretty cold-blooded thing to insinuate.

No I wanted to generalise, and not put my mom in the spotlight for saying 'I should have been aborted' for about eight years now, but she isn't better off dead. In fact it really isn't her fault she's that way, since she had been abused much worse by her mom who also forsed an abuseive first hubby on her too. My grandma was also a victim, in fact if I had a written history, I could trace it back right down to a slave plantation, which is the true geanology for most black children, some parents have not gotten over the mentality of the eighteenth century, moreso than whites have even.

[Mike Fang]

*rolls his eyes exhasperatedly* When I said "better off dead", I was referring to the UNBORN CHILDREN. You know, the individuals in this case that pro-choicers seem to incessantly REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE LIKE THEY DON'T EVEN FACTOR INTO THE ISSUE?

[T.s.a.o]

no I didn't mean that, sorry, i'll never try to be sarcastic again. i think it would be horrible if that happened

[Mike Fang]

Mmm. Well I couldn't tell it was sarcasm at the time. I'm sorry if I overreacted, but sometimes sarcasm isn't as apparent OL as it is IRL.

[T.s.a.o]

OL as it is IRL?

[Mike Fang]

If you don't recognize the terms, OL is an abbreviation for Online, and IRL is an abbreviation for the phrase "in real life".

[T.s.a.o]

duh he says to himself,
sorry again, I've begun to just think rightmindedly nowadays, on that side Abortin is plain disgusting...

[Mike Fang]

Heh, not a problem, and frankly I think that's a good thing.

[LoneWolf23k]

It has been suggested elsewhere that the standard for life should be the generation of brainwaves.

It's a rational and viable compromise, at least.... we already use CESSATION of brainwave activity as a demarcation for the END of life, so there's already a medical precedent for it. And it leaves a window of, if I recall, several weeks for things like the abortion pill....

But your average tooth-gnashing pro-abortionist would rather give birth to a cactus than see even a clinical compromise. Hell, they won't even compromise on "partial birth" abortion!

There is a dread and terrible consequence coming for our nations' devaluing of human life... a horrendous karmic debt that is already of ruinous proportions and grows every day.

God save us all from what comes next.

In a past episode, CSI's main character mentions that the Bible recognizes life as being when blood passes through the heart, and that as such maybe a good compromise would be when the fetus begins to develop blood and a heart.

[Gengar003]

*steps up, cracking his knuckles, eyes shifting around*

wisdom

I agree with you, mostly -- Abortions should not be so common as to lead people to think "I can fool around all I want -- if I mess up and get pregnant, I'll just abort it," but they should be available to save the mother's life, if need be, or to rape victims. I don't think I can really appreciate how much being legally forced (especially at a younger age, i.e. teens) to bear the child of some random guy who you never knew and will never see again, and being saddled with the full cost of the child with no hope of help from the father would suck. I couldn't support anything that would endorse putting people in that position.

I think, though, that "blood flowing through the heart" as a measure of when life starts, if, as ... was it Sarruk? said, it is only 10 days, while it may be a politically/morally acceptable compromise, 10 days is an awfully small window, and it seems to me that "settling" the issue there wouldn't make things any better for those that needed an abortion. I can't speak from experience, not being female and never having been pregnant, but it seems to me that I wouldn't notice "ohshit-pregnant" within 10 days. Anyone have better intel on that particular point? How long does it take to realize you're pregnant?

Certainly women who used protection/were using contraceptives, deliberately trying NOT to get pregnant should have some recourse if our (currently imperfect) contraception fails, right? I think so, at least. Otherwise it's kind of like forcing abstinence on everyone -- don't play if you're not ready to raise a kid or you could end up screwed over (pun not intended) and then you'll be up shit creek without a paddle.... but some people might want that.

Upon reading S.Dakota's bill, it sounds quite reasonable, all things considered -- I expected, in light of this thread, for it to be a lot worse. They make provisions for saving the mother's life, but not for rape victims...

[T.s.a.o]

well yeah my father wants that, he dosen't see why anyone should get married if it's not to start their own family-it kinda makes since, because Paul said it was good for a man not to marry also, and that was probably because marriage and procreation are both going to be scrapped in Heaven and in the New City, so why bother with it (Oh well, least a man [or woman] burns I suppose)? Otherwise, we might again just fall into Neapoleons trap of saying Prostitution should be leagal so men won't go and rape women in the streets. Also the granddaughter of my ex-pastor was raped, and her baby is a charm to the entire family! I don't see why abortions should be available to rape victims-I mean what's the cause? The assulater dosen't care for the child anyway, and having the baby might actually help reverse PTSD symptoms.

[Gengar003]

I don't see why abortions should be available to rape victims-I mean what's the cause? The assulater dosen't care for the child anyway, and having the baby might actually help reverse PTSD symptoms.

You said you weren't going to be sarcastic any more, so I'll take that at face value.

What do you plan to do with your life? Could you support a kid right now? Do you want one? Imagine that tomorrow someone rapes you, and 9 months later, because the state won't let you abort it, you've got yourself a baby. Some cases it might turn out all right -- you cite a (presumably) rare example of a happy ending. Most rapists, though, don't wait for a convenient time for the victim to have a kid. Someone impregnated by rape is having an expensive, possibly unwanted burden given to them, whether they want it or are ready for it or not. The issue is not what the assaulter cares for - they didn't care for the mother; there's no reason to expect them to care for the kid.

So you've got this kid that you weren't planning on having and weren't prepared for. Your work/school suffers, because, y'know, you've got to keep this kid alive, lest you be charged with child neglect/abuse and whatnot. At the same time you're scaling back on your work, to make time for the kid, you need more money than ever before to care for it. Yet you've no time to work, because (in the first months/weeks, at least,) raising a kid can be a 24/7 job. With no father around, you can't leave the kid to go to school, or work, or whatever. You've been yanked out of whatever plans you may have had for yourself and forced into motherhood.

If the vicitim can't abort the rape-induced pregnancy, they're stuck becoming a parent. For me, being still in school, I certainly could not handle raising a kid. Not only would my studies be shot to hell, but I don't know near enough. If a classmate of mine were raped and had a kid from that rape, their "future," the one that the public school system tries to give them, would be shot. If I recall correctly, giving birth at a young age also shortens the life expectancy of the mother -- so it would damaging to their health.

Or, let's put aside the rape/pregnancy angle for a second -- If I gave you a newborn right now, and told you it was legally your kid and you were legally responsible for its well-being, what would you do? How would that affect your life? Most people are not, at any given moment, ready for that kind of responsibility. Forcing it upon them, let alone making it illegal to do otherwise, does not seem to me a good policy.

[Sciguy]

I'm just going to say this because I never hear anyone using this argument these days. Partial-birth abortion and Abortion are two completely diffrent procedures.

Not that I approve of ether, but hey, it's one of the main arguments I heard. Get rid of Partial birth-abortion and you destroy abortion.

So now I'll discribe partial birth abortion as a teacher explaned it to a class of mine.


1) the Doctor makes it so the child is born feet first and upside down.

2) Then he only allows it to be born to the neck, allowing the back of the head to be shown.

3) With a scapel the doctor creates an incision at the base of the skull and uses a tool to pry open the back of the skull.

4) The doctor sticks in a tool discribed akin to a blender and scrambles the brains. (Despite the assurance of doctors whom perform this operation, that the child feels nothing, nurses have clamed the "un born" child struggles)

5) The doctor sticks un a hose and sucks the brains out. Thus the end of the operation.



If that sounds like abortion to you, then I'd like to sugest a step further.

Go read Jhonathan Swift's Essay, "A Modest Proposal," and then learn what Satire means (Not that any parent on your advrage PTA seems to know).


One final peice of food for thought. By New Jersey law, a child under the age of 18 can go into a state clinic, be diganosed pregnant, and get an abortion, without the parent never even knowing.

Does that little tidbit scare anyone? You could live in Jersey and never even get so much as a notice that your child has undergone a procedure or has been engaging in activitys that you may or may not approve of. Never being able to know your underage shild, who you raised and did your best to protect had an abortion. You wouldn't even have a say dispite it being your own little or not so little girl.

[T.s.a.o]

well as a college student myself being raped at any time would be inconvient to my schedule as well as any other crime, but the closest thing I would feel to what a woman being raped was if my assulter was an hermoaphrodite. but i do pray it wouldn't happen for anyone, and that I could help the victim, even if it means adopting her child myself (though that would make a lousy family tree for the child either way). It's that kind of sacrifice even James Dobson expects out of men. Listen to his radio message today (it should re-air on kfax at 9:00, otherwise it should be a link at http://www.family.org). My Aunt is also taking that example somewhat, in adopting a Girl from China. She even has a deformation and adds to her alrady brought cousin from Kazakstan-though I agree foster organizations need to step up the pace on this.

[Gengar003]

Really, what we need is less kids being born to parents who can't care for them... Oh, wait...

[T.s.a.o]

yeah, i've seen the parents who are too immature to raise a child, even when they had it consensually, but it's not like the child will suffer if they're parented right, even if it itsn't they're biological parents. I was raised (better) by my Father and Godmother, though I still need work on respecting the biological mother I live with.

[IronFox]

In a past episode, CSI's main character mentions that the Bible recognizes life as being when blood passes through the heart, and that as such maybe a good compromise would be when the fetus begins to develop blood and a heart.

I wouldn't trust anything put out by Jerry Bruckheimer regarding social issues. I'd probably say that the easiest thing would be to measure brain activity, since there is medical precedent. Furthermore, since it's possible for a person to be alive with brain activity, but a non-functioning heart (a pacemaker, for example), it would seem to be simpler to set forward the brainwave precedent. Of course, if you declare a blanket ruling (yes or no to abortion), then the issue becomes moot.

[StrangeWulf13]

So, there are people here who would gladly punish an unborn child for the sins of his father?

Look, I know rape is an ugly deal. But the kid ain't the one at fault. Catch the rapist and give him either life in prison or the chair. But let the child live.

Honestly... you can always give the child up for adoption, or maybe call on your parents? Your friends? You don't live in a freakin' vaccuum y'know, unless you're a lonely teenager living in your parent's basement...

[Tbolt]

Just a couple of thoughts:

When does an unborn human become alive?

True, at the zygote level (one fertilized cell) one does not see all the differentiated tissues and functions of a greater developed stage. But if it is not alive, why does it absorb nutrients and grow?

When does an unborn human become human?

Upon conception, the zygote contains enough genetic material for: Qty 1 human being. All that is needed is time for growth and development and nutrients to permit the same.

To my knowledge nothing else is genetically added.

To expound: If one took a human zygote and placed it into a raccoon, assuming it would survive, one would not end up with a rac-conan. Conversely if one took a fertilized fish egg and planted it within a woman's body one would not get a mermaid.

Do all zygotes reach maturity?

No. There are many natural reasons why this life will never see the light of day. But even outside the womb, there is no guaranty that a young man or woman will ever see adulthood, reach their full potential, or attain a particular age.

Maybe this is inappropriate, but I would like to see a film that would parallel how life would be if an unborn human had the same protection under the law as an accused murderer. I picture the final scene of the movie to go something like this:

A 16 year old young man enters the courtroom escorted by the guards and accompanied by his lawyer.

Judge: The fetus is now ready to hear the results of the court?

The young man nods

Judge: It is the opinion of this court that giving birth would impose too great a financial and social burden upon the mother, abortion approved.

The "fetus" is taken out and terminated in a loving and humane manner.



I don't know...

Not being female I guess I cannot fully appreciate a lady's position. All I can do is behave responsibly myself. I've survived the better part of four decades on this planet without touching a girl. I'm waiting for my wife, it keeps things so simple (they are complicated enough as it is!) If I never get married, so be it, God please grant me strength to endure! That is what I can do to prevent abortion. If more men had this attitude, 99% of this entire debate would be academic.