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And some people post their logical fallacies and then express surprise and dismay when no one else is smart enough to agree with them.

Hey, it happens. Some people just don't wanna give up their beliefs, no matter how stupid.

Luna_Northcat wrote:

starfury wrote:<snip>

Is there some kind of sentement where muggers are smarter, faster, more powerful then the average armed/trained citizen?

My friends are smart, normally well thought people. But this really got me. What the crap happened?

My thought? They might be thinking of the sort of "combat paralysis" which most people (and I do mean most people) display when they are attacked. The simple, sad fact is that in most cases the attacker has a speed and reaction advantage over a normal person because he comes prepared to do violence, and he is initiating the action. Speaking from unfortunate experience -- unless you have had some form of training or prior experience which will eliminate it, when you are attacked you freeze for a fraction of a second out of sheer surprise, or shock that you've been attacked. It is not the kind of thing that happens to people in the normal run of events, after all. And when you freeze -- and seriously, freezing is the normal response -- the mugger or attacker has a chance to take whatever you're carrying off you. It is a very rare person who does not have combat training or experience and does not give the attacker that advantage.

Absolutely on point Luna, however.......the one thing you didn't touch on is the fact that most muggers and one-on-one attackers are cowards and creatures of oppertunity. One aspect of combat paralysis has to do with mindset, or situational awareness. If you "present" yourself as prey, the mugger (predator) is going to choose you over someone who presents as more alert and prepared to defend themselves.

RH couldn't have said it better than this.....

http://utlt.keenspace.com/d/20020520.html

IN NO WAY DO I MEAN TO IMPLY THAT YOU WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR UNFORTUNATE EXPERIENCE OR THAT YOU "BROUGHT IT ON YOURSELF!"

It's a sad commentary on todays society that more and more you have to think like a criminal in order to remain safe. The point all this goes to is that if your situational awareness level is appropriate for your environment, and this doesn't mean being paranoid, just alert, not only do lower your chance of being attacked, if you are attacted, your mental preparedness greatly lessens the surprise factor and your chance of freezing correspondingly drops. Another thing is that in every state that has enacted concealed carry, the one-on-one crime rate along with the general violent crime rate has dropped dramatically.

Luna_Northcat wrote:Also, unless you have your gun somewhere you can get to it within a fraction of a second, which means you can't be carrying it in the bottom of a bag -- then your attacker is armed and you aren't -- and as soon as he sees you fumbling around for something he's going to make sure you are helpless or wounded and then he's going to take it off you.

And why would you carry a concealed defensive handgun in an inaccessable manner? I consider this to be as foolish as some of the blue state gun laws that require, if you have your gun in your car, you to keep your gun unloaded and locked in the glove box and the ammo in the trunk...."for your own safety"... WTF?????? By what twisting into a pretzel of common sense and logic is THIS conclusion arrived at?

Luna_Northcat wrote:Which is why, IMO, if you are going to get a gun it is also VERY worthwhile to take martial arts or the more serious self-defense classes as well, so that you have the reflexes you need.

One of the requirements of Florida's CCW is that you obtain training in the carrying and use of a defensive handgun and present a certificate of it before you are issued your permit. And they are quite specific as to where the training must come from.....the NRA firearms safety training course is one of the most widely used programs ans is used in every CCW state.

BTW......I hope that your experience didn't leave you with any injuries and the scumbag was caught.

S'aaruuk

Sharuuk wrote:<snip>
Absolutely on point Luna, however.......the one thing you didn't touch on is the fact that most muggers and one-on-one attackers are cowards and creatures of oppertunity. One aspect of combat paralysis has to do with mindset, or situational awareness. If you "present" yourself as prey, the mugger (predator) is going to choose you over someone who presents as more alert and prepared to defend themselves.

RH couldn't have said it better than this.....

http://utlt.keenspace.com/d/20020520.html

<snip>

It's a sad commentary on todays society that more and more you have to think like a criminal in order to remain safe. The point all this goes to is that if your situational awareness level is appropriate for your environment, and this doesn't mean being paranoid, just alert, not only do lower your chance of being attacked, if you are attacted, your mental preparedness greatly lessens the surprise factor and your chance of freezing correspondingly drops.

True. Absolutely. All of it. NOT BEING PREY is vital. Confidence, awareness, all the things which tell a criminal to go pick on someone easier.

(Incidentally, I don't think I did bring my attack on myself; I was attacked in my own home, by someone I had previously trusted, or at least had had no reason not to trust. Ok, I was a stupid teenager at the time... *sigh*)

Sharuuk wrote:

Luna_Northcat wrote:Also, unless you have your gun somewhere you can get to it within a fraction of a second, which means you can't be carrying it in the bottom of a bag -- then your attacker is armed and you aren't -- and as soon as he sees you fumbling around for something he's going to make sure you are helpless or wounded and then he's going to take it off you.

And why would you carry a concealed defensive handgun in an inaccessable manner? I consider this to be as foolish as some of the blue state gun laws that require, if you have your gun in your car, you to keep your gun unloaded and locked in the glove box and the ammo in the trunk...."for your own safety"... WTF?????? By what twisting into a pretzel of common sense and logic is THIS conclusion arrived at?

As I made that comment, I was thinking of a friend of mine who used to carry her handgun in the bottom of her purse...her gigantic, overstuffed-with-everything purse...there was no way she would ever have been able to get that gun out in less than 5 minutes. I advised her just to carry a can of Pepsi in there instead, and just wallop her attacker with the purse. It would work better.

I always wondered about the whole "having a gun for safety, locked in a cabinet with the ammo somewhere else"...how is that supposed to work?

Sharuuk wrote: One of the requirements of Florida's CCW is that you obtain training in the carrying and use of a defensive handgun and present a certificate of it before you are issued your permit. And they are quite specific as to where the training must come from.....the NRA firearms safety training course is one of the most widely used programs ans is used in every CCW state.

See, now, <i>that</i> sounds like a sensible approach, to me.

Sharuuk wrote: BTW......I hope that your experience didn't leave you with any injuries and the scumbag was caught.

Unfortunately, yes, and no, in that order. The scumbag wouldn't have been that difficult to catch, but there was other poop going on...long story.

hmmmm

my thoughts on gun control pretty much mirror that penn and teller "bullshit" episode =)

Though honestly, I will never own a gun.

Luna_Northcat wrote:

Sharuuk wrote: One of the requirements of Florida's CCW is that you obtain training in the carrying and use of a defensive handgun and present a certificate of it before you are issued your permit. And they are quite specific as to where the training must come from.....the NRA firearms safety training course is one of the most widely used programs ans is used in every CCW state.

See, now, <i>that</i> sounds like a sensible approach, to me.

It is. And, our (Florida's) CCW program became the model for pretty much all the other states that enacted after ours (1987) proved so successfull.

And you should have heard the gun grabbers screaming at the tops of their lungs at how Florida would become "Dodge City East", blood flowing like rivers in the street, cops dying by the dozens, shoot-outs in parking lots over space....on and on and on.......it was really absurd. And this one particular legislative jack-ass named Ron Silver (D) North Miami Beach, coined the term "Gunshine State", and was one of the loudest and most shrill voices opposing the reform.

Happily, the past 18years have proven him and all the other doom sayers and fear mongers not only wrong, but to their great apoplexy, beneficial in actually driving crime down....and the only thing they've been able to do without looking like complete idiots is to seeth in silent impotenece at how the foundation of their agenda has been so totally discredited......by the very "neaderthals" they actually hoped, yes HOPED would prove their point.

Also......when muggers don't know who's "packed" and who isn't......it makes it safer for all of us.

I've always maintained and have stated this to legisaltors....."When the risks outweigh the profits, crime goes down."

Now, with the passage of Floridians being able to defend themselves outside of thier homes without fear of politically motivated prosecution for acting in a lawfully defensive manner......personal violent crimes against "general" citizenry will further decrease. This won't have any effect on the gang/drug related shootings etc. but those are only a very small fraction of the general violent crime issue here.

Sorry to learn you were injured, I hope there were no permanent disabilities.

S'aaruuk

Eh, several years of Bad Things Happening, but nothing permanent.

Gave me a very different perspective on a number of things.

Thanks for the good wishes.


---

I reread the last few posts...actually, I still think that martial arts or self-defense training <i>in addition to </i>gun training would be a good idea -- just for the "instant response" reflex, which I'm not sure the gun training would necessarily give you.

Besides, if you've decided you want to be able to defend yourself, why explore only one avenue?

Just a little factoid from the 'Guns Magazine 2006 Annual':

Two states currently allow any resident OR non-resident (visiting) adult citizen to carry a concealed, loaded firearm, with no permits required.

Which two states?

Why, Alaska... and Vermont.

I don't recall hearing of any constant mass crime waves in Vermont, or Alaska. Must be hushing it up, right?

StrangeWulf13 wrote:And some people post their logical fallacies and then express surprise and dismay when no one else is smart enough to agree with them.

That's funny. I post logical fallacies and then express surprise and dismay when no one else is smart enough to disagree with them.

CasVeg wrote:That's funny. I post logical fallacies and then express surprise and dismay when no one else is smart enough to disagree with them.

I dissagree!

Skip Sanders wrote:Just a little factoid from the 'Guns Magazine 2006 Annual':

Two states currently allow any resident OR non-resident (visiting) adult citizen to carry a concealed, loaded firearm, with no permits required.

Which two states?

Why, Alaska... and Vermont.

I don't recall hearing of any constant mass crime waves in Vermont, or Alaska. Must be hushing it up, right?

Cuz you know, alaska and vermont are just SO overcrowded with FOB's, mexicans, and low income families living in ghettos of whom can't find jobs because the job market is saturated, and *breathe*... if it wasn't for all those easily and legally obtainable guns that the good law-abiding citizens of vermont have with them at all times, then these ghettoed, jobless abominations would be overrunin' the place with help from their readily available black market gun suppliers, of which they can afford to purchase from.

Lots of those black market gun dealers were thinking of going over there if those 2 places finally got gun laws, last I heard. Just itchin to jump in the gold mine, as they say...

Sharuuk wrote:<snip>It's a sad commentary on todays society that more and more you have to think like a criminal in order to remain safe. The point all this goes to is that if your situational awareness level is appropriate for your environment, and this doesn't mean being paranoid, just alert, not only do lower your chance of being attacked, if you are attacted, your mental preparedness greatly lessens the surprise factor and your chance of freezing correspondingly drops. Another thing is that in every state that has enacted concealed carry, the one-on-one crime rate along with the general violent crime rate has dropped dramatically.

I remember reading that whether a mugger will pick you out also has a lot to to with your body language. If you walk huched over, or are constantly looking around, or any other signs that you are afraid/nervous your odds of being picked out go up significantly. Whereas if you walk confidently like you belong there and you know what you are doing there is a greater tendency for you to be left alone.

msd22000 wrote:I remember reading that whether a mugger will pick you out also has a lot to to with your body language. If you walk huched over, or are constantly looking around, or any other signs that you are afraid/nervous your odds of being picked out go up significantly. Whereas if you walk confidently like you belong there and you know what you are doing there is a greater tendency for you to be left alone.

Absolutely......that goes back to my comment on mindset and situational awareness. Body language is a very difinite indicator of mindset.

S'aaruuk

*UPDATED*

Hmm... Either I'm doing something wrong, or someone is deleting my posts. *tsk* Looks like somebody may have gotten upset with what I wrote.

You can see my original post (one of the two that mysteriously vanished from this BBS), along with some extra commentary, here:

http://www.browncross.com/usualsuspects ... 00209.html

P.S. Feel free to add your comments to the above weblog. We're not afraid of people who disagree with us, so we don't delete anything (except spam).