BoKiana wrote:Jam, you should just give up from here on out. People like our friend Lazerus are those who want to see the clouds part, God appear and tell everyone else "Stop groveling! And don't apologize! I swear, every time I try to talk to someone it's 'Forgive me this' and 'I'm sorry that' and 'I'm not worthy'", judging by his most recent reply to your post. Those are the type that refuse to believe no matter what is said, or done, or shown or anything.
I've had my own miracle happen, in a not so dissimilar way in the things you've described of yourself so I'm in the ballpark of your experience, if on a distant row and seat. And trust me, it doesn't change things for those like Lazerus no matter what you say.
It is not a matter of "refusing to believe no matter what." I would accept a miracle that isn't holy-fire and demons. It just has to pass one, little test, a basic understanding of statistics.
If someone has a bible on their person, is shot, and the bible saves them, you call that a miracle......but, if, no matter how many times this happened, the bible never stopped the bullet, woudln't it be even odder? Woudln't that indicate that bibles have some magical bullet-repelling property that makes the person get shot elsewhere?
If you could show that bibles never blocked bullets, that'd be a miracle. If you could show they always did, that'd be a miracle. If you could show they do more or less then they should for their size, that'd be a miracle.
But "It happen's sometimes!" is exactly what should happen.
Lazerus wrote:It is not a matter of "refusing to believe no matter what." I would accept a miracle that isn't holy-fire and demons. It just has to pass one, little test, a basic understanding of statistics.
I think it's more deeper than what you're asking. You're asking for proof more than anything.
That happened quite a long time ago, and even in the face of proof, people still didn't believe in Him. People didn't believe in Him before Sodom and Gomorrah was taken out of the picture, and people didn't believe in Him when the strange thing called 'rain' was going to fall on the earth.
But I won't argue these points to you, as you've more than likely argued these points time and again with others and came to your own conclusions, there are others much more knowledgeable than I, and I'm sure if you truly want to know more, you'll seek them out; I'm just your Average Joe kind of guy. I have my beliefs, and you have yours. I'll leave it at that, and let you be.
Allow me to introduce myself--Corporal "Bo" Kiana, Ex-Army, "Warmongering Psychopath Tool!"
Lazerus wrote:It is not a matter of "refusing to believe no matter what." I would accept a miracle that isn't holy-fire and demons. It just has to pass one, little test, a basic understanding of statistics.
I think it's more deeper than what you're asking. You're asking for proof more than anything.
That happened quite a long time ago, and even in the face of proof, people still didn't believe in Him. People didn't believe in Him before Sodom and Gomorrah was taken out of the picture, and people didn't believe in Him when the strange thing called 'rain' was going to fall on the earth.
But I won't argue these points to you, as you've more than likely argued these points time and again with others and came to your own conclusions, there are others much more knowledgeable than I, and I'm sure if you truly want to know more, you'll seek them out; I'm just your Average Joe kind of guy. I have my beliefs, and you have yours. I'll leave it at that, and let you be.
I know this isn't what you were saying, but FYI, you can't exactly cite the bible as an unbiased source to determine if a miracle happened.
As for "I have my faith, and that's that." I completly respect that, but as the spiritual and secular worlds can never be truly seperated, it can't work that way.
Remember those cheesy movies where two peoples brains get switched?
I'm personally curious as to exactly when that happened with our parties.
The Republicans are, traditionally, the hard nosed realist, economically responsible, small government side.
The Democrats are, traditionally, the bright eyed idealist, tax and spend, lets run everything from the fed side.
The last democrat in the whitehouse shut down the government, twice, when congress wouldn't send him a balanced budget.
The current president bends over backwards to avoid having the dollar cost of the war show up on the annual books.
Are there times when you gotta spend more than your making? Yes. Emergencies, like war or the flood that trashed my home this summer, happen. You do what you need to to get through.
Pretending that you're not really running up your credit card bill doesn't help and isn't responsible.
This year I voted democrat nationally, because I fealt that Bush needed a check for his balance. I voted Green on the state level because, in Illinois the democrats have been doing pretty much what the republicans have been doing on the federal level.
The greens took a pretty hefty share of votes this year, with comparatively little money or organization. The established parties both said "isn't that cute?" and called it a mandate against the other party.
You can fool some of the people all of the time
And all of the people some of the time
But you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Lazerus wrote:As for "I have my faith, and that's that." I completly respect that, but as the spiritual and secular worlds can never be truly seperated, it can't work that way.
*emphasis added*
I'm not going to argue it further than this.
Why contradict yourself in the same sentence? How can you say you respect my beliefs, then turn right around and tell me that it can't work? It seems to me that because you have your own ideas of what X should mean, X should happen and always be so, and because someone else (me, JAM, etc) believes differently, you feel the need to cite sources, or events or demand undeniable proof that it's true, else wise it's completely false and you must point out things to the smallest detail.
Even when I try to say 'Ok, you go your way, I have mine' you pick that apart.
So, like I said, I'm not going to argue it any further than that. Good day, and good bye to you.
Allow me to introduce myself--Corporal "Bo" Kiana, Ex-Army, "Warmongering Psychopath Tool!"
Lazerus wrote:As for "I have my faith, and that's that." I completly respect that, but as the spiritual and secular worlds can never be truly seperated, it can't work that way.
*emphasis added*
I'm not going to argue it further than this.
Why contradict yourself in the same sentence? How can you say you respect my beliefs, then turn right around and tell me that it can't work? It seems to me that because you have your own ideas of what X should mean, X should happen and always be so, and because someone else (me, JAM, etc) believes differently, you feel the need to cite sources, or events or demand undeniable proof that it's true, else wise it's completely false and you must point out things to the smallest detail.
Even when I try to say 'Ok, you go your way, I have mine' you pick that apart.
So, like I said, I'm not going to argue it any further than that. Good day, and good bye to you.
So be it, but what I meant, to clarify was "I don't have a problem with the idea of someone beliving in god, but since those beliefs have an impact on my life, they, unfortuntily, are my buisness."
LoneWolf23k wrote:Well, at least you're not biased in your complaints..
I voted a straight democratic party ticket, but only because I believe the democrats, by virtue of being more passive, will be less active in screwing things up.
The moment god actually harvests grain for farmers, moves things for truckers, and makes soliders who fight in his name bullet-resistant, I'll buy that.
Until then, I'm placing it solidly in the "Stuff the bible says that even christains admit isn't true" catagory.
Taking stuff out of context is quite easy. The context you're missing is Genesis where God sentences Adam and Eve to work, toil, and suffer for they had sinned. It is their penance and if one applies oneself to one's penance, God will help.
Therefore, while God helps those who help themselves as a direct quote in the Bible doesn't exist to my knowledge, the principle is certainly derivable from things that are in the Bible.
This is why faithful christians can be particle physicists and not have their heads implode.
PeterSwinkels wrote:If there's a God who helps people, what about all the people that didn't get out of accidents so well?
Death is a complex thing and a mystery. Why me, why him, why not them are things that haunt many people. The short answer is that it *is* a mystery and while we can understand sometimes, even the saints cannot understand it all the time, they just accept it.
Why did Fr. Mihai live all throughout the night as I stood death watch on him, singing and chanting prayers over him and then die within half an hour of my departure for work the next day? In this case, I think that God used his death to give me a lesson, one that I still take out and ponder every once in awhile.
Why did Auntie Letitia clean everything up, dye her hair for the first time in months and die in my bathroom of a massive brain aneurysm? There's another message there for me to unravel, I'm sure.
Why did somebody push that bomb under the conference table 4 inches and save Hitler's life from his german assassins? Why was his death delayed? There's another lesson there.
I don't think anyone on earth has all the answers but I think that no death is meaningless. The US, culturally tends not to like discussing or thinking much about death. Not all cultures are like that (and it's not just the irish with their wakes).
PeterSwinkels wrote:Okay, but I wonder how paralyzing people or causing cancer fixes things...
Let me make up a narrative of the afterlife:
God, why did you give me cancer?
You had two completely self-centered parents an unfeeling uncle, and 3 burned out nurses who were all headed straight to Hell and your disease and the way that you approached it saved every single one of them. You will not only have an eternity of bliss but you will have your close family with you and know that your courage, dignity, and faith have even saved some strangers. It was a life well spent.
----
All the stories and songs of christians as soldiers marching off to spiritual warfare are less fanciful than many modern americans imagine. Soldiers take casualties.
But I would emphasize that while you can explain *some* deaths like this, many, many deaths remain a mystery.
Deckard Canine wrote:With every event, whether you like it or not, God essentially asks, "Now that that's happened, will you (still) love me (more)?" It is up to the individual to answer.
My answer just might be.."Why should I love you more now that you've let/made this happen to me?"
If I were to become a quad like Chirstopher Reeve, every waking moment would be devoted to figuring out some way to end my existance. Note that I do not say "life". I simply could NOT continue existing having to TOTALLY DEPEND ON OTHERS for even the very basics of 'living'.
What he accomplished and stood for before his death is quite commendable, maybe he's stronger than me, I don't know. What I DO know is that it would be intorerable for me to have to depend on others 24/7/365 just to keep breathing. One way or another, I'd find a way to end my life. If that's a sin against God.....fine. If, according to the direction this thread is going, He put me in this situation....then I want nothing more to do with Him. Destroying the life I had forever, for whatever "reason" is absolutely NO way to garner ANY respect let alone devotion.
Şaaruuk
One of the great sins, pride, manifests itself in exactly this way. "I don't need anybody else" is not a christian virtue but rather a vice.
Lazerus wrote:
If I could throw a deck of cards over my shoulder, and have them all fall to the ground in a neat grid from lowest to highest, that would be a damn impressive trick woudln't it?
If I throw a deck of cards over my shoulder, and it lands in a jumbled pile. That's less impressive, what happened is exactly what you expect to happen.
Now, lets say I throw six billion packs of cards over my shoulder, one at a time. It would take awhile, to be sure, but it could be done. Out of all of those six billion, say, three actually land in a nice neat ordered grid.
Now, is that a nice trick? Of course not! If you throw enough packs of cards, eventually, though random chance, you'll get every possible configuration. But lets say I started throwing cards day in and day out and I didn't really bother to tell anyone. And then, one day, when they land in that neat grid, I show pictures and go to the media.
Now it looks like a nice trick, because you only see when it works.
Hearing about someone saved by a bible (litteraly) sounds like a miracle. Until you hear about all the people who had bibles on their person and were shot dead as a doorknob.
For it to be a trick, I have to be able to do it consistantly. Throw it over my shoulder and have it fall in that configuration more often then it should.
Llikewise, for it to be a miracle, bibles have to have a better track record as armor then other, similarly sized, bullet-proof objects. And there's no proof of that.
--------
Why are miracles always unobserveable? A bible blocks the bullet, could have been luck. Someones flu goes away, could have been luck. Someones cancer turns out to be bengin, could have been luck.
You never hear about the regrowing of a severed leg, or about someones bible actually making bullets bounce off them, or about actual fire coming out of the sky to smite the heathens. All of those miracles are confined to an era when the records are so horrible we can't confirm they ever happened at all.
The simple truth is, there are no miracles. There's just people who got lucky, and people who arn't around to contradict them.
Actually, your logic does not hold. If you have a capricious test subject, one that you do not control at all, and at whim he can make the cards fall in the neat stack, you simply could not reproduce the behavior but you also cannot deny that he is doing it at whim.
God is a person, not a machine. You do not control God. He controls you if he chooses.
Lazerus wrote:
If I could throw a deck of cards over my shoulder, and have them all fall to the ground in a neat grid from lowest to highest, that would be a damn impressive trick woudln't it?
If I throw a deck of cards over my shoulder, and it lands in a jumbled pile. That's less impressive, what happened is exactly what you expect to happen.
Now, lets say I throw six billion packs of cards over my shoulder, one at a time. It would take awhile, to be sure, but it could be done. Out of all of those six billion, say, three actually land in a nice neat ordered grid.
Now, is that a nice trick? Of course not! If you throw enough packs of cards, eventually, though random chance, you'll get every possible configuration. But lets say I started throwing cards day in and day out and I didn't really bother to tell anyone. And then, one day, when they land in that neat grid, I show pictures and go to the media.
Now it looks like a nice trick, because you only see when it works.
Hearing about someone saved by a bible (litteraly) sounds like a miracle. Until you hear about all the people who had bibles on their person and were shot dead as a doorknob.
For it to be a trick, I have to be able to do it consistantly. Throw it over my shoulder and have it fall in that configuration more often then it should.
Llikewise, for it to be a miracle, bibles have to have a better track record as armor then other, similarly sized, bullet-proof objects. And there's no proof of that.
--------
Why are miracles always unobserveable? A bible blocks the bullet, could have been luck. Someones flu goes away, could have been luck. Someones cancer turns out to be bengin, could have been luck.
You never hear about the regrowing of a severed leg, or about someones bible actually making bullets bounce off them, or about actual fire coming out of the sky to smite the heathens. All of those miracles are confined to an era when the records are so horrible we can't confirm they ever happened at all.
The simple truth is, there are no miracles. There's just people who got lucky, and people who arn't around to contradict them.
Actually, your logic does not hold. If you have a capricious test subject, one that you do not control at all, and at whim he can make the cards fall in the neat stack, you simply could not reproduce the behavior but you also cannot deny that he is doing it at whim.
God is a person, not a machine. You do not control God. He controls you if he chooses.
No......no.....no no no no.
If the person uses this card-falling power AT ALL, we will see more cards falling in order then we should. The only way we could not see that, is if for every time they magicly make the cards fall in order when they wern't going to, they magicly make them not fall in order when they were going too.
In other words, it would be like if you said "For every cancer patiant god cures who was going to die, he strikes down one who was going to live." Which is clearly BS.
Lazerus wrote:In other words, it would be like if you said "For every cancer patiant god cures who was going to die, he strikes down one who was going to live." Which is clearly BS.
Which is also defined as the principle of conservation.
Okay, so it's a mystic principle in this context, but it is a consideration. Imagine God (or Death, if you prefer an old concept) having a quota of deaths. "If I don't take you, I've got to take someone else."
Earl McClaw invites you to visit Furryco and the DGL. (Avatar used with permission of Ralph Hayes, Jr.)
For the whole "Why does God let bad things happen?" question, I've got two answers..
#1: Check the Book of Job. The basic message is, "sometimes bad things happen to good people. Don't worry, I'm God, I know what I'm doing and it'll all work out."
#2: I get this one from the Jack webcomic: "God? Why don't you stop people from doing bad things? Signed, Timmy." "Timmy? Why don't you people stop doing bad things yourselves? Signed, God."
Basically, God wants us to take care of ourselves, and of each other, instead of begging him for favors for everything. It doesn't mean he doesn't love us, or that he won't look out for us from time to time, but he gave us everything we need to cure diseases and end suffering ourselves.
All we need to do is start fixing things ourselves.
<sigh> Okay, Lazerus, I'll tell my miracle story. But please, forego the "You're lying", "You're making it up", "It's all an ego trip for you", and all the other insulting things people say to you when they refuse to believe you. If you simply can't accept reality outside your own "It cannot be", then just say it and drop the subject, okay?
19 February, 1993: I was downtown, at the intersection of Commerce and Griffin streets, watching the Dallas Cowboys victory parade. One by one, the flatbeds passed, carrying players, minor celebs, the usual parade people. And then... the last truck passed.
It took a minute or so for the crowd (me included) to realize it was the last truck. Then we all began to follow it. (I can't speak for others, but I was hoping for an autograph.) I got two blocks.
Suddenly, a loud voice resounded in my head. If you can imagine James Earl Jones Sonovoxed with an ocean storm, you're in the ballpark... as long as you set it around 80 dB. "YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT", the Voice said. "YOU WANT TO GO TO THE LIBRARY. YOU WANT TO GO TO THE EIGHTH FLOOR. YOU WANT TO FIND THE BOOK ON ALBERTUS MAGNUS. YOU WANT TO TAKE NOTES. AND YOU WANT TO DO IT NOW."
Don't ask me where I got the guts to aim my eyes Heavenward and say, "Well, if you're sure..."
The Voice jumped to 100 dB. "YES! NOW! GO!"
I went. Working against the flow of the crowd, I managed to return to a corner (begging the pardon of a large black woman I accidentally, er, "copped a feel" of... it was a crowded place, okay?) and head toward the library.
Almost immediately, I felt a pressure in the small of my back. I turned my head to look, but there was nobody there... just a pressure, like two hands pushing me along. The pressure grew, and grew... until finally, I called out, "Look, if you push any harder, I'll fall over! Then where will we be?"
The pressure on my back ended... and suddenly, I Needed to get to the library. Capital-N Needed. It was a driving anxiety that I Needed to get to the library. Walking quickly, I went past the City Hall, seeing the speeches already underway in front of it, and went inside.
The Need stopped.
With a shrug, I decided not to fight it, and went to the eighth floor. It took me three tries to find the book I'd looked at the previous day, but finally I located it and began taking exhaustive notes. It was just as I finished noting that making a lamp with a green shade, burning the fat from a dog's ear, was supposed to make everyone around it look like they had the heads of dogs...
... that I realized I was never going to have any use for this information. I crumpled my notes, threw them into a trashcan, and headed downstairs.
As I emerged onto the streets of Dallas, everything was quiet. Deathly still. No people in sight, nothing but litter on the pavement. I picked my way back to Commerce... and suddenly lost all sense of direction. I knew I'd come from Commerce and Griffin, but which way?
*Turn right*, the Voice said, now much quieter.
"You're sure?"
*Yes. Turn right.*
"You're positive?"
*Yes. Turn right.*
"... well, all right..." I turned right. Crossed a street. And immediately realized that Griffin was the other way on Commerce. I turned to recross the street, and a police officer stepped out from where I hadn't seen him. (No, Lazerus, I'm not claiming he was an angel. Before you ask.) He stopped me, informed me that all intersections were one-way for the duration. I tried to explain that I was trying to get back to where my mother worked (she worked for the IRS in the Federal building at Commerce and Griffin)... and then raised my hands and backed away slowly as a VERY tense policeman's hand hovered by the butt of his pistol.
It took me quite some time to thread through all those one-way intersections. Up one side, down another... but finally I crossed the intersection of Commerce and Griffin (saying hello to a radio reporter as I hurried inside) and sat down in the lobby.
Some minutes later... yep, the Voice again, small and still.
*You should go to the snack bar.*
I rolled my eyes; this was getting ridiculous. "I don't have enough money."
*You don't know that.*
"Yes, I do. I have enough for a bus fare home, and that's it."
*You might be able to get something...*
"There's nothing I can afford!"
*You don't know that.*
Finally, I looked upward, fuming. "All right. All right! But I'm telling you, I can't afford anything. Everything's three prices in there."
No answer... but I could swear I "felt" a small smile.
Naturally, this being a government building, I couldn't afford so much as a soda or a candy bar, even with my bus fare added in.
And then I heard the radio.
Combined with my mother's information, the following sequence of events emerged:
In the library: The riot breaks out at Commerce and Griffin.
Taking notes: The riot rages out of control.
Wrong turn: Rioters storm the lobby of the Federal building.
Into the lobby: The radio reporter is stabbed to death minutes later.
Snack bar: The lobby is stormed again. Both times, the Federal security officers repelled the rioters.
Now: If you can come up with a reasonable statistical chance, or any plausible explanation for this happening, then you go right ahead. Otherwise, please stop leaning on the "Miracles don't happen!" button, okay?
Yours truly,
The wolfish,
Wanderer
P.S.: Apologies to anyone I've already told this to.
Deckard Canine wrote:With every event, whether you like it or not, God essentially asks, "Now that that's happened, will you (still) love me (more)?" It is up to the individual to answer.
My answer just might be.."Why should I love you more now that you've let/made this happen to me?"
If I were to become a quad like Chirstopher Reeve, every waking moment would be devoted to figuring out some way to end my existance. Note that I do not say "life". I simply could NOT continue existing having to TOTALLY DEPEND ON OTHERS for even the very basics of 'living'.
What he accomplished and stood for before his death is quite commendable, maybe he's stronger than me, I don't know. What I DO know is that it would be intorerable for me to have to depend on others 24/7/365 just to keep breathing. One way or another, I'd find a way to end my life. If that's a sin against God.....fine. If, according to the direction this thread is going, He put me in this situation....then I want nothing more to do with Him. Destroying the life I had forever, for whatever "reason" is absolutely NO way to garner ANY respect let alone devotion.
Şaaruuk
One of the great sins, pride, manifests itself in exactly this way. "I don't need anybody else" is not a christian virtue but rather a vice.
At no time have I said that didn't need anybody else. And there is a huge difference between needing a bit of help now and then and TOTALLY RELYING ON THE GOODNESS AND CHARITY OF OTHERS just to survive for more than 4 days. And it's not pride, false or otherwise...I just could not tolerate being a 100% burden to people, be they my family or hired outside help. A totally useless lump of flesh unable to perform even the most basic or minor acts of the 'living'. That's why it would be an existance and not a life for me and therefore I would focus my entire energies into ending the torture. Being a quad, at least for me, would be 10,000 times worse than being in a prison....for I would already be a prisoner of my own useless body.....death would be a blessed release.
This is not pride....this is reality.
Şaaruuk
We are NOT surrounded.....this is a "target rich" environment!
Lazerus wrote:In other words, it would be like if you said "For every cancer patiant god cures who was going to die, he strikes down one who was going to live." Which is clearly BS.
Which is also defined as the principle of conservation.
Okay, so it's a mystic principle in this context, but it is a consideration. Imagine God (or Death, if you prefer an old concept) having a quota of deaths. "If I don't take you, I've got to take someone else."
Which still means that when you pray for someone, God is as likely to strike them down because of your prayers as save them because of your prayers. So my point stands, nyeh!
[scratches head] Um, it looks to me like he defined the principle and gave a hypothetical example, not that he proved it by giving a factual event.
I'll also let you consider Wanderer's story first before I give a few of my own.
