Trial page for the magazine strip!

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Mon May 14, 2001 1:53 am

Here's the trial page, with penciled in dialogues. I can't believe I took so long to create a single page.The dialogue is mixed Dutch/English. This is common throughout the target magazine. I have larger and better-readable scans that I will send to them, but I'd like to hear your suggestions first.<img src="http://users.bart.nl/~samizdat/pics/floor1a.png">
<img src="http://users.bart.nl/~samizdat/pics/floor1b.png">My deadline: no later than Wednesday for the trial page. Then the axe will fall. Or not.------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Mon May 14, 2001 1:58 am

I forgot: Steve's off-camera swearing is probably acceptable. I've also spotted some mistakes in the second-to-last panel after posting the page <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif">------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>

Zapjones · Post by **Zapjones** » Mon May 14, 2001 6:02 am

Very nice Reinder, although, I can't really read the dialogue. ~Caleb

Dedos · Post by **Dedos** » Mon May 14, 2001 6:25 am

Yeah, great portraits of innocent anxiety and desire. The girls are very... girly (good energy). <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> I like how the older brother looks annoyed and Steve is being nice... Good work & good luck, Reinder!.c.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon May 14, 2001 7:14 am

It looks really good! I think the "emotional depth" came through quite nicely. Even with the dialog so faint, you can tell pretty much what is going on.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by reinder:
I forgot: Steve's off-camera swearing is probably acceptable.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That really shows some cultural differences between Europe and the States. Over here, swearing would be considered a big no-no for something aimed at teenagers.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon May 14, 2001 7:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Well, yeah. Maybe I hadn't really thought it through.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I figure its just what you've experienced, buts its something you'll want to bear in mind if you ever consider selling to any US markets. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
There is one strip in there that I absolutely adore: "The Girl is Mine" by Mars Gremmen. Mars really walks the fine line all the time with suggestive dialogue. The strip is about the love triangle between a boy, his sexy British au pair and her dog. In the sample issues I got, the boy has told the dog to go play with his tail, looked for a nice bitch to distract the dog in an animal shelter where all the bitches acted like stereotypical prostitutes, and spoken suggestive asides to the reader. It gets close to being unacceptable, but evidently Mars is not getting his strip canceled, and it is actually the highest rated strip in the mag. I should add that it is really well-written and drawn, and also influenced by classic newspaper comics.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow! When parents got wind of something like that in the schools over here, they'd go ballistic. I do think the kids would like it though. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The other strips all have some degree of profanity and potty humor as well, come to think of it. But the English grammar is impeccable <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> (Actually, I could find some faults in the glossaries and pronunciation guides that might lead to misunderstandings later on. But it's real English, taught at a level that 10-14-year-olds can understand.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That brings up the question of which English do they teach? There are some significant differences betwen how the language is used between England and North America (not to mention Down Under). Some of the definitions are different and some of the spellings also (eg color vs colour - thats even a difference between the US & Canada). I suppose the popularity of American movies maybe is somewhat unifying the language, but there is an old saying about how the US & England are two peoples seperated by a common language. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
[This message has been edited by gordon (edited 05-14-2001).]

Lordgeejay · Post by **Lordgeejay** » Mon May 14, 2001 9:10 am

Very nice! I like how you make them very real and alive even though their faces are simple. Good luck!

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Mon May 14, 2001 9:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gordon:

That really shows some cultural differences between Europe and the States. Over here, swearing would be considered a big no-no for something aimed at teenagers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, it shows nothing of the kind. Swearing in a foreign language always has less impact than in your own, so as long as it's limited to the occasional 'shit' in English, it's no big deal. It might not be quite right anyway - I'm reworking the third last and second last panel to show the action and expressions in a clearer sequence.------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Mon May 14, 2001 10:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by gordon:

That brings up the question of which English do they teach? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's British English all the way. I really think the Dutch education system should switch to using American English because that's what the kids will be using in the real world, but I don't see this happening in the next few decades.------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>

Mcvos · Post by **Mcvos** » Mon May 14, 2001 10:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by reinder:
Well, yeah. Maybe I hadn't really thought it through.
The magazine, called Hello You is a bit of an odd one, really. It's distributed to subscribers through schools, and is intended to make learning English look like a hip thing to do.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do kids really need to be convinced that English is hip? I don't really see myself as a purist, but the way everything that tries to be hip (like advertisements) is in English, nowadays, as well as how everybody who tries to be hip talks in broken English, is getting a bit ridiculous. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Swearing and slightly risque humor are allowed because that's what the readers like and know, and it helps them absorb the language.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What always amazes me is that words like 'goddammit', the Dutch translation of which is considered to be the worst kind of swearing around here (and rightly so, in my opinion), seem to be reasonably acceptable in English, whereas (IMO) harmless words like 'shit' (which even the previous minister of my church confessed to using) seem to be a capital crime in the US.Nevertheless, even the Dutch form of 'goddammit' is quite acceptable on TV (more so than in real life, it seems). The only thing that will get you hanged (figuratively speaking, ofcourse) is racism or phrases that were popular in nazi-Germany.A recent interesting case was that of an Imam (muslem priest) who said that homosexuality was a contagious disease and harmful to the society. It took some days before reactions really started to appear (after all, he is a muslem, and being a non-christian religion, you have to be nice to them), but over the last week, he has been seriously ridiculed, and the muslem community has distanced itself from him. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Ah well, I'm aiming for the top. That's always a good thing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If the magazine is popular, and you get your name with your strip might have a new generation of fans growing up with your comics.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon May 14, 2001 11:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by reinder:
 Actually, it shows nothing of the kind. Swearing in a foreign language always has less impact than in your own, so as long as it's limited to the occasional 'shit' in English, it's no big deal.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have to disagree with you here. Its true there is no impact if you don't know the word you are hearing is a curse word, but once its known, people do complain. Or native speakers of the language in question might complain. Once a complaint has been lodged, the major media outlets are usually quick to cave and delete the offending phrase. Understand I am talking about the US here. It may be different in Europe, but that was my original point.I hear occasional stories about TV writers who try to slip in curse words in what they think are obscure languages or an obscure dialect of a well-known language. The TV network censors almost always catch it and cut it.Believe me, even the occasional "shit" would be a very big deal over here in any kind of mass market publication aimed at teenagers. Shoot, it would be problem even for many publications aimed at adults. Things are loosening up here, but this is happening at a glacial pace.

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Mon May 14, 2001 11:53 am

Well, yeah. Maybe I hadn't really thought it through.
The magazine, called Hello You is a bit of an odd one, really. It's distributed to subscribers through schools, and is intended to make learning English look like a hip thing to do. It does a really good job (I think - I haven't asked any kids) of working within the world that the kids know. Swearing and slightly risque humor are allowed because that's what the readers like and know, and it helps them absorb the language.There is one strip in there that I absolutely adore: "The Girl is Mine" by Mars Gremmen. Mars really walks the fine line all the time with suggestive dialogue. The strip is about the love triangle between a boy, his sexy British au pair and her dog. In the sample issues I got, the boy has told the dog to go play with his tail, looked for a nice bitch to distract the dog in an animal shelter where all the bitches acted like stereotypical prostitutes, and spoken suggestive asides to the reader. It gets close to being unacceptable, but evidently Mars is not getting his strip canceled, and it is actually the highest rated strip in the mag. I should add that it is really well-written and drawn, and also influenced by classic newspaper comics.The other strips all have some degree of profanity and potty humor as well, come to think of it. But the English grammar is impeccable <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> (Actually, I could find some faults in the glossaries and pronunciation guides that might lead to misunderstandings later on. But it's real English, taught at a level that 10-14-year-olds can understand. I grew up on some of the publisher, Malmberg's other periodicals (Jippo and Taptoe) and have fond memories of the comic strips in those even though most other editorial content has turned out to be forgettable. This magazine, I think, is better than those old ones, and I really want to be in there (apart from wanting the money; it's been more work so far than the page rate itself is worth)- but I'm also still less than confident.
Ah well, I'm aiming for the top. That's always a good thing.
------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Tue May 15, 2001 12:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcvos:

In the second panel, the lines indicating Floor suddenly turning her head don't look too good (but I wouldn't know how to do it either), and in the fifth panel, Floor looks like she has a really tiny mouth and really thick lips. Maybe leave that tongue out or shade the inside of her mouth somehow.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The real mistake here is going overboard with blacking in some of the other mouths. That sort of thing should be the colorist's job. I'll discuss that with the editor when I get in touch with her later today.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I really like the way Amber looks, by the way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, yeah. I think she's a much more succesful design than Floor so far. But that's always the case with supporting characters.------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Tue May 15, 2001 12:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dedos:
 From what you posted earlier, the background seems pretty sparse. If you can make it less, then by all means. Looking at it, I have no idea what I'd remove.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They singled out the shrubs near the house in the first panel as an irrelevant piece of detail. I put that in because it's the sort of thing that looks good in Mars' strip. But I don't have Mars' compositional ability so what fills out the panels pleasingly in The Girl is Mine is a distraction in mine. Lesson learned: don't try to be someone else - a lesson I need to re-learn every few months, or so it seems.
------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Tue May 15, 2001 5:52 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mcvos:
 What always amazes me is that words like 'goddammit', the Dutch translation of which is considered to be the worst kind of swearing around here (and rightly so, in my opinion), seem to be reasonably acceptable in English, whereas (IMO) harmless words like 'shit' (which even the previous minister of my church confessed to using) seem to be a capital crime in the US.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hee. Reminds me of the old George Carlin comedy routine: The 7 Words You Can't Say on Television. Its quite hilarious and still pretty much true even after 25 or so years (as long as you are referring to American Network TV).

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Tue May 15, 2001 9:29 am

The magazine editor replied with compliments and some specific suggestions, which I will follow. She wants the dialogue to be all-English (yes, please) but that also means it should be simpler (uh, simpler than that? OK...), and there should also be less detail in the background (even less than that? I'd put some more in so I wouldn't lag too far behind the other strips! Oh well). Also, Steve didn't look quite cool enough (Can't Floor just be a bishonen fancier?). Anyway, back to the drawing board for further refinements.And here's one thing that caught me by surprise: they thought the video gaming behaviour was too aggressive! So they do have to deal with parental sensibilities after all. Anyway, how am I doing? On the one hand, it's hard to get a commitment out of them. On the other hand, no one is forcing them to help me, a complete unknown, develop a new strip that will cost them a bundle. Clearly, they are getting more interested, and I think I can almost proceed as if I just might possibly get this gig. ------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>

Dedos · Post by **Dedos** » Tue May 15, 2001 10:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>there should also be less detail in the background (even less than that? I'd put some more in so I wouldn't lag too far behind the other strips! Oh well). Also, Steve didn't look quite cool enough (Can't Floor just be a bishonen fancier?).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>From what you posted earlier, the background seems pretty sparse. If you can make it less, then by all means. Looking at it, I have no idea what I'd remove.

Hmm.. the next point is going to be the tough one. What makes someone cool?
I thought his innocent look was refreshing. *shrug* <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And here's one thing that caught me by surprise: they thought the video gaming behaviour was too aggressive!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You can change it from Alien Blasting to Football/Soccer or something... GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anyway, how am I doing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're doing great, Reinder. They seem to be very interested and giving you lots of feedback, so that can only be a good thing.

Mcvos · Post by **Mcvos** » Tue May 15, 2001 11:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by reinder:
I have larger and better-readable scans that I will send to them, but I'd like to hear your suggestions first.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I really like the general look and the jokes, and I don't think the game console thing with Steve is unclear. There are some other things, though:In the second panel, the lines indicating Floor suddenly turning her head don't look too good (but I wouldn't know how to do it either), and in the fifth panel, Floor looks like she has a really tiny mouth and really thick lips. Maybe leave that tongue out or shade the inside of her mouth somehow.I really like the way Amber looks, by the way.

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Wed May 16, 2001 1:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by lordgeejay:

Well maybe they were expecting Sesame Street level English or something. I can't comment on the dialog much though because I can barely read it. Maybe they were expecting "Yay!" instead of "Woo-hoo!" or something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can help you with that. Here's the original, bi-lingual dialogue:
Panel 1:
Floor: "Don't look, but I REALLY like that guy who's just coming in with my brother.Panel 2:
Amber: "Who, him?"
Floor: "Ik zei, NIET KIJKEN!"Panel 3:
Amber: "How can I check him out if I can't look?"
Floor: "Oh, nevermind!"Panel 4:
Amber: "Nou, ik vind hem niet zo bijzonder. Hoe heet hij?"
Floor: "Steve..."
Amber: Heb je al met hem gepraat?"Panel 5:
Floor: "Are you NUTS? He's in my brother's class! He'll think I'm some stupid little schoolgirl!"
Amber: "Oh, puh-lease!"Panel 6:
Amber: "Come on! Just say 'hi, Steve, how are you?' You can do it!"
Floor: "But..."Panel 7:
Amber: "There he is"
(second balloon) "Attack!"
Roger: "YES! Die, alien scum!"
Steve: "Woo hoo!"
Panel 8:
Floor: "Uh... "
(second balloon) "hi... Steve"
Roger: "Go pester someone else! We're busy!"
Steve: "Oh, hi."Panel 9:
Floor (thinking): "Yes!"
Amber: "Floor? Hello?"
Steve: "Shit, I'm dead!"Panel 10:
Caption: "Uuuuuuren later..."
Floor: "He said 'hi' "
(second) "He likes me"
(third) "Mmmmm..."
Amber: [sarcastically] "1600, slag bij Nieuwpoort, 2001, Steve zegt hoi tegen Floor..."Now there are places where I can simplify, but not many of them.Sesame-Street level is probably too optimistic. Remember, this is the first episode of the school year, and you can't expect the kids to know more than a few phrases they heard on TV. At the low end of the target age rate (i.e. 10), I was the only one in my class who knew more than that.Thanks for the moral support, again, everyone. And the video game dialogue suggestions.I will give something back to the community for the help. At the least, a full report on my experiences, posted in the Keenvention.
------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>[This message has been edited by reinder (edited 05-16-2001).]

Mcvos · Post by **Mcvos** » Wed May 16, 2001 11:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by reinder:
 It's British English all the way. I really think the Dutch education system should switch to using American English because that's what the kids will be using in the real world, but I don't see this happening in the next few decades.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think it really matters much. Apart from the spelling of some words, there aren't really very many differences. I tend to use something closer to British English, and I don't see anyone here having a problem with it.And the few real differences (like the word 'pissed') don't really show up much in the lessons, I think.